Straw purchase

[Suprtek]

This may be a stupid question but it's not the first one I've asked and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Is it still legally considered a "straw purchase" if the person I intend to give the gun to is a "proper person"?

I ask because a friend of mine is interested in getting a handgun and won't be able to attend the 1500. If I find something that would work for him and buy it, then sell it to him the next day for the same price, am I breaking the law?

I know private sales are perfectly legal in Indiana but I've never seen any specific time set for how long you had to own it before you could sell it.

 

[esrice]

Good question! Looking forward to the replies.

 

[Brandon]

It is your gun, sell it if you want to.

 

[badmac183]

you can sell a gun anytime you feel like it you dont have to hold it

 

[Suprtek]

It is your gun, sell it if you want to.

I agree with this. But the question is regarding the legality of doing so. Also, when you purchase a gun from a dealer, you have to answer this question in writing. How do I answer?

 

[Suprtek]

you can sell a gun anytime you feel like it you dont have to hold it

Can you cite the relevant statute?

 

[Brandon]

I think the question asks if you are the actual purchaser of the fire arm.

Can always practice the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy.

 

[GARANDGUY]

If you buy it with the intent of selling it to another person or buy it FOR another person it is a straw purchase. If it is bought FOR YOU and for some reason you dont like it and sell it then no it is not!

 

[LotsofGlocks]

Im saying if you are buying a gun with the intent of selling to a friend thats a straw purchase.

Question 11a. on the 4473 Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm listed on the form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm on the behalf of another person.

 

[DragonGunner]

After you buy the gun you can sell it or give it away....if you answer yes you will not be able to purchase, according to my understanding...a straw purchase is when someone asks an gives you money to purchase it for him....

 

[WebSnyper]

I think stating your intention in this thread was probably not the best idea. Besides, he can probably find a better deal just by calling one of the local shops.

 

[GARANDGUY]

Im saying if you are buying a gun with the intent of selling to a friend thats a straw purchase.

Question 11a. on the 4473 Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm listed on the form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm on the behalf of another person.

You are correct! Rep for you!

 

[mrjarrell]

Don't ask. Don't tell. Lying to the government is self preservation at its finest.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I just had a sitdown with my ATF examiner today. He made very clear that the ATF position is that if you are buying a weapon with the intent to sell it, give it away, or even gift it away, it is a straw purchase. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that it is.

 

[Suprtek]

I found this on page 165 of the "ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide"
Seems to spell it out pretty clearly.


http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf


15. STRAW PURCHASES
Questions have arisen concerning the
lawfulness of firearms purchases from
licensees by persons who use a "straw
purchaser" (another person) to acquire
the firearms. Specifically, the actual
buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
the Form 4473 purporting to show
that the straw purchaser is the actual
purchaser of the firearm. In some instances,
a straw purchaser is used because
the actual purchaser is prohibited
from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
within one of the other prohibited categories
of persons who may not lawfully
acquire firearms or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's
business premises is located.
Because of his or her disability, the person
uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm
from the licensee. In other instances,
neither the straw purchaser nor the actual
purchaser is prohibited from acquiring
the firearm.
In both instances, the straw purchaser
violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the
licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth. The actual
purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
aided and abetted or caused the
making of the false statements. The
licensee selling the firearm under these
circumstances also violates Federal law
if the licensee is aware of the false
statements on the form. It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.
An example of an illegal straw purchase
is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided
and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.
Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.

 

[philagothon]

What if he buys from an individual? Does no 4473 = no straw purchase worries?

 

[MrSmitty]

Buy from someone who is not a FFL dealer, then no 4473, no crime. Are there collectors at the 1500, who buy and sell for personal use? I think if he were not legally able to purchase for himself, and you bought it for him, then that's a crime, JMHO

 

[windellmc]

This begs the question of whether or not you should violate an unconstitutional law.

 

[hoosierdaddy1976]

I found this on page 165 of the "ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide"
Seems to spell it out pretty clearly.


http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf


It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.
An example of an illegal straw purchase
is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided
and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.
Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.

IANAL, but the scenario in bold seems to indicate that it is a straw purchase if Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones money before the purchase takes place. It seems to me that if you spend your own money to buy a gun, you are the actual purchaser, no matter how long you actually own it. If you found a killer deal on a gun that you know you could turn an immediate profit on, would your purchase with the intent to resell be a straw purchase? Sounds more like an investment to me.

The underlined section (gifting a gun) could also work. If you give your buddy a gift, I'm sure he would feel obligated to return the favor. Just keep the receipt in case your gift doesn't fit, and return it for cash.

 

[Suprtek]

IANAL, but the scenario in bold seems to indicate that it is a straw purchase if Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones money before the purchase takes place. It seems to me that if you spend your own money to buy a gun, you are the actual purchaser, no matter how long you actually own it. If you found a killer deal on a gun that you know you could turn an immediate profit on, would your purchase with the intent to resell be a straw purchase? Sounds more like an investment to me.

The underlined section (gifting a gun) could also work. If you give your buddy a gift, I'm sure he would feel obligated to return the favor. Just keep the receipt in case your gift doesn't fit, and return it for cash.

I see your point but the scenario does not state when Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money. Just sayin...