Something has to be done

[mrjarrell]

I have an idea - let's let them come over here and pick our fruit and harvest our crops and tend our landscapes and roof our houses and clean our houses. For a very low price.

Mmmmm. Smells like freedom.

^^This!

 

[paddling_man]

FOX News, doing their best to get people fired up about the symptoms instead of the cause.

Newstertainment.

I have an idea - let's let them come over here and pick our fruit and harvest our crops and tend our landscapes and roof our houses and clean our houses. For a very low price.

Mmmmm. Smells like freedom.

Neither political side. Let me repeat that: NEITHER ESTABLISHED POLITICAL SIDE wants to end this immigration. The influx of workers (who actually work instead of sit on their 5th generation asses soaking up the tax dollars of welfare/subsidized housing) are an integral part of the economy. The lower economic end of the workforce, to be sure but necessary.

How about this? You want to stop illegal immigration? Threats ain't gonna do it. Not threats of violence; not threats of death. If my kids are hungry then I would have ran the East/West German line in the eighties to work to feed them.

You want to stop it? You remove the damn incentive. No jobs if not a citizen. NO JOBS. Make every level accountable for breaking the law. HARSH penalties for those who, with a wink and a nod, employ illegals.

The conservative business owners don't want to do it. The liberal bleeding heart doesn't want to do it.

I can sympathize with the guy making a midnight run over the border for the opportunity to get a seasonal job picking apples for a quarter an hour - all to feed his family. Yeah, I can sympathize with him more than those speak about the horror of this illegal immigration on one side of the mouth and, on the other side, aren't willing to attack the root cause: the folks illegally employing them who cause the demand for this immigration.

 

[mrortega]

If they knew there was a chance of getting shot while crossing they would think twice about it. Right now they know they will probably get a meal and a ride back home....why not keep trying.

The story was about the bad boys, not ordinary illegals. These are the dudes who are cutting off heads. They are also riding shotgun for heavy drug shipments and big groups of illegals. A big downside to whacking one of them would be the fact their buds would probably murder the farmer and his family and burn down his buildings within a week.

 

[mrortega]

Newstertainment.



Neither political side. Let me repeat that: NEITHER ESTABLISHED POLITICAL SIDE wants to end this immigration. The influx of workers (who actually work instead of sit on their 5th generation asses soaking up the tax dollars of welfare/subsidized housing) are an integral part of the economy. The lower economic end of the workforce, to be sure but necessary.

How about this? You want to stop illegal immigration? Threats ain't gonna do it. Not threats of violence; not threats of death. If my kids are hungry then I would have ran the East/West German line in the eighties to work to feed them.

You want to stop it? You remove the damn incentive. No jobs if not a citizen. NO JOBS. Make every level accountable for breaking the law. HARSH penalties for those who, with a wink and a nod, employ illegals.

The conservative business owners don't want to do it. The liberal bleeding heart doesn't want to do it.

I can sympathize with the guy making a midnight run over the border for the opportunity to get a seasonal job picking apples for a quarter an hour - all to feed his family. Yeah, I can sympathize with him more than those speak about the horror of this illegal immigration on one side of the mouth and, on the other side, aren't willing to attack the root cause: the folks illegally employing them who cause the demand for this immigration.

That ain't the point. It's the organized gangs with GUNS personally threatening farmers until some of them have just moved out. The standard illegal you're talking about it another story. These are the heavy hitting "troops" trying to clear out anything in their path.

 

[gunman41mag]

Sooner or later the AMERICAN farmer are going to have to DECLARE war on those illegal drug lords

 

[88GT]

I have an idea - let's let them come over here and pick our fruit and harvest our crops and tend our landscapes and roof our houses and clean our houses. For a very low price.

Mmmmm. Smells like freedom.

Minimum wage law is a related, but independent issue.

Besides, nothing inherently contradictory between freedom and secure borders with controlled immigration. That might be the first time I've seen you throw up a red herring issue.

 

[paddling_man]

That ain't the point. It's the organized gangs with GUNS personally threatening farmers until some of them have just moved out. The standard illegal you're talking about it another story. These are the heavy hitting "troops" trying to clear out anything in their path.

I wasn't attempting to make your point but mine. I can fail miserably at making my own points all the time... my wife reminds me of that constantly.

You're noting the end result = symptom. I'm making a point about the root cause for that resultant symptom.

A sideline to your point about the symptom: Farmers are moving or in fear of their life due to armed gangs of drug runners or coyotes (those who ferry illegal immigrants as paid passengers?) If an armed man threatens the farmer then he should be shot. Done. I'm signed on.

Again, you want to STOP - TRULY STOP - those armed men from coming over? You stop the financial incentive while at the same time nullifying their force/aggression model via border control and armed men. They're not wandering over and threatening the farmer because it's fun. It's not entertainment.

You END their business. Whether is it illegal drug consumption and distribution or the ag/construction businesses who illegally employ those folks.

(While you are stopping the financial incentive of those gun-toters and ending their business model - while you're actually FIXING the problem - you are free to deal with the symptom by terminating those who would push this illegal business model via force/intimidation.)


BTW - if that irritating roofer foreman want to gets aggressive with you when you shut his business down and take him to damn jail for employing illegals... if he tries to use force also... feel free to shoot him as well.


Dodge City Rules.

As a tax payer, I'm comfortable spending an exorbitant amount for border control to control the symptom for a period of time. I'll be damned if I'm comfortable spending that money while we ignore the root cause and turn a blind eye to all of those US citizens who make money as a result of the illegal making it across *or* distribute/sale/use those drugs that are ferried over and cause US citizens to be threatened in the process.

You MUST end the profit motivator for these armed men to cross the border if you want to end it. Greed and profit is a powerful motivator and one that brings constant innovation to bypass your interdiction methods.

 

[paddling_man]

Minimum wage law is a related, but independent issue.

I'm curious. Do you see minimum wage law related because you think that the minimum wage is too high or too low?

I would be willing to bet those industries that regularly hire illegals with impunity are paying them far less than minimum wage. While raising the minimum wage might be an incentive for more people to actually work instead of living off my taxes, it would be no incentive for the industrial boss to employ those higher paid legals.

If we lower the minimum wage until a "legal" could be employed for the same rate as an "illegal," I would challenge that those living off welfare would be unchanged in their lack of motivation to work.

Help me understand how minimum wage is related if no changes are made to FORCE the employers to follow the law and not employ illegals under pain of incarceration or severe financial penalty?

You have to make it financially not viable for the employer to hire illegals. No more illegals (at least those that come to work. There is always a subsection of men who will steal but I'm not addressing that.) Then the only recourse is for the employer to hire legal workers at least at minimum wage. If he can't attract enough workers at minimum wage, then he will have to increase his wages. Doing so will result in construction and agricultural prices skyrocketing and the economy spirals. What happens then?

 

[dross]

Minimum wage law is a related, but independent issue.

Besides, nothing inherently contradictory between freedom and secure borders with controlled immigration. That might be the first time I've seen you throw up a red herring issue.

Not a red herring. I do believe we have the right to control our borders. I also see it as a restriction on freedom - the my freedom, as an American citizen, to hire whomoever I wish to perform services for me at whatever wage we both agree upon.

I'm curious. Do you see minimum wage law related because you think that the minimum wage is too high or too low?

I would be willing to bet those industries that regularly hire illegals with impunity are paying them far less than minimum wage. While raising the minimum wage might be an incentive for more people to actually work instead of living off my taxes, it would be no incentive for the industrial boss to employ those higher paid legals.

If we lower the minimum wage until a "legal" could be employed for the same rate as an "illegal," I would challenge that those living off welfare would be unchanged in their lack of motivation to work.

Help me understand how minimum wage is related if no changes are made to FORCE the employers to follow the law and not employ illegals under pain of incarceration or severe financial penalty?

You have to make it financially not viable for the employer to hire illegals. No more illegals (at least those that come to work. There is always a subsection of men who will steal but I'm not addressing that.) Then the only recourse is for the employer to hire legal workers at least at minimum wage. If he can't attract enough workers at minimum wage, then he will have to increase his wages. Doing so will result in construction and agricultural prices skyrocketing and the economy spirals. What happens then?

Why is it the job of an employer to enforce laws the government can't enforce itself? I should have no obligation to incur costs to check the status of people who are already here.

As to minimum wage being too high or too low, that's for the market to decide. Sometimes and some places it's too high, sometimes too low. People have little to do with it since prices are nothing but information. That includes the price of labor.

 

[paddling_man]

Why is it the job of an employer to enforce laws the government can't enforce itself?

Who said the employer has to enforce the law? I would see no enforcement necessary. Only punish the employer when they break the law by employing illegals.

I don't ask my neighbor to enforce drug laws. Only to be punished when he breaks the law and cooks meth.

 

[Expat]

I have an idea - let's let them come over here and pick our fruit and harvest our crops and tend our landscapes and roof our houses and clean our houses. For a very low price.

Mmmmm. Smells like freedom.

Or build the fence, secure the border, return the illegals and then make our fat lazy teenagers get off their asses playing video games and make them get out and work.

 

[paddling_man]

Or build the fence, secure the border, return the illegals and then make our fat lazy teenagers get off their asses playing video games and make them get out and work.

Please don't forget about the fifth gen welfare folks. They gotta work too.



Can we deport them as well?

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Or build the fence, secure the border, return the illegals and then make our fat lazy teenagers get off their asses playing video games and make them get out and work.

Build the wall - and they find the weakest link.

Secure the border - relative security is all you can ever achieve. We can beef up security, but it will never be secure. Throw into the mix corruption - and you have a situation where those "securing" our border let cartels pass.

Return the illegals - really? Return every illegal? How?

Our teenagers are too fat and lazy to even try to compete with illegals. Actually I take that back, since some teens are drug dealers too, and work for the cartels down the line...

Systematic problems cannot be fixed without reforming the system. As much as it can make us feel good and get gung-ho about fences, or security - the root of the problem is not the border - it is the huge profits they gain and the incentive that creates.

Since we have created a system in which smuggling flowers over the border yields criminals great wealth, people will always volunteer to do just that.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Build the wall - and they find the weakest link.

Return the illegals - really? Return every illegal? How?.

If we build a new fence (Vlad style) with the bodies of their dead , I bet they get the point , quite literally .

 

[Expat]

Return the illegals - really? Return every illegal? How?

Start prosecuting employers. Just like during this recent recession. When they can not find work, they go back home because the cost of living is much lower.

 

[down3green]

...it is ridiculous that Americans are being ran off their own land by illegals.

I'd bet the American Indians had sentiments much like this - and they fought long and hard to prevent it.

As the ~old~ saying goes; "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it."


.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Start prosecuting employers. Just like during this recent recession. When they can not find work, they go back home because the cost of living is much lower.

Please sell that to the Repubs and Dems, then let me know how it goes.

Still, would be like deporting some - because people will always get away with cash transactions.

You are at least onto one of the main causes though - incentive.

 

[gunman41mag]

We are sending the illegals back to MEXICO & they are coming back, LET'S SEND the ILLEGAL to GITMO {Guantanamo Bay, CUBA} They won't be coming back, unless they can escape & swim back to the GOOD OLD USA

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

If we build a new fence (Vlad style) with the bodies of their dead , I bet they get the point , quite literally .

Even building a fence on the southern border will not stop immigration.

Look at how many people make it here from Cuba, and give that some though....

Sheesh... people wanting to live in America, the greatest country on Earth... who do they think they are... CRIMINALS I tell you....

 

[Leadeye]

Start prosecuting employers. Just like during this recent recession. When they can not find work, they go back home because the cost of living is much lower.

To make this work you have to get the executive level. Industries that hire a lot of illegals just look at the fines and underlings prosecuted as the cost of doing business, just like the money they send to dc.