So a .22 isn't good for self defense ?

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  • Rshelbu

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Dec 6, 2009
    88
    6
    OK - here is some wound info and wound profiles from Dr. Fackler (who should know!) to help pass the time waiting for spring to arrive:
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    Fackler, Martin L., M.D.: "FBI 1993 Wound Ballistics Seminar: Efficacy of Heavier Bullets Affirmed." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(4): 8-9; 1994.

    Fackler presents findings from the 1993 FBI Wound Ballistics Seminar. The following is a short extract:

    "The Firearms Training Unit of the FBI held a Wound Ballistics Seminar from 19 through 22 January 1993 at the FBI Academy.

    "Thirty-seven forensic pathologists, trauma surgeons, law enforcement trainers, firearms examiners, and ordnance engineers met to discuss handgun bullet effects and bullet testing. This group unanimously affirmed the principles set down by the FBI workshop of 1987: primarily among these was that a bullet must possess the capacity to penetrate deeply enough to reach and disrupt vital body structures if it is to stand any chance of performing reliably in the variety of circumstances a law enforcement officer might meet in a gunfight. Since the 1987 workshop, most law enforcement agencies have adopted the more deeply penetrating heavier bullets. At the 1993 symposium, trainers from five large departments (California Highway Patrol, Indianapolis PD, San Diego PD, Louisiana State Police, and Amarillo PD) reported data showing excellent performance from bullets chosen using the FBI penetration criterion. Several of these trainers had polled their counterparts in other departments and found that their highly favorable observations and impressions of the heavier bullets were widely shared.

    "The findings of this symposium are especially timely since it appears that three gunwriters have recently attempted to trump up a 'controversy' by claiming that the heavier subsonic bullets used by the majority of law enforcement agencies have been turning in a poor record in 'street' shootings. The story of how several senior trainers exposed this attempted fraud by these gunwriter/bullet salesmen was the subject of IWBA Bulletin No. 1, which accompanied the third issue of the Wound Ballistics Review."

    Newgard, Ken, M.D.: "The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992.

    This article examines the physiological mechanisms of the human body to provide a medical answer to the question: How many times is it necessary to shoot an assailant before he is incapacitated?

    Newgard reviews the physiological mechanisms of gunshot wound trauma incapacitation:

    "The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."

    Newgard discusses the body's blood loss sensory and compensatory mechanisms (venous constriction, increased cardiac output and vascular fluid transfer), and the degree in which these mechanisms respond to, and compensate for, hemorrhagic shock. He reviews clinical tests of human tolerance for blood loss, which "demonstrate that adequate blood pressure can be maintained with minimal symptoms until a 20% blood deficit was reached." Newgard provides the following example:

    "For an average 70 kg (155 lb.)* male the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force). his aortic blood flow can reach 11 liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume.... This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.

    "Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because: 1) bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood vessels, 2) as blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows, 3) surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss, 4) the bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels, 5) bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than rapid bleeding, and 6) the above mentioned compensatory mechanisms."

    Newgard investigates the survival times of persons who received fatal gunshot wounds to determine if the person who was shot had enough time to shoot back. He concludes:

    "Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant."

    And now for my next trick: (Facklers wound profiles are based upon ordenance testing with balistic gelatin and actual autopsy results) guy gets a
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    from me on that one!

    Enjoy!
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    PurdueGunLover

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 25, 2010
    73
    8
    Delphi
    Has anyone thought of using quick shock round for self defense. Rounds that fragment on impact. So if ou hit center mass I think this might cause serious damage. if the person isn't wearing thick cloths. What go you guys think?
     

    84VETTE

    Sharpshooter
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    4   0   0
    Nov 28, 2009
    478
    28
    Salem
    From what I can tell, a .22 has fairly good penetration but lacks effective stopping power. They penetrate much farther in a phone book than say my .25 acp but I would feel more comfortable defending myself with my .38 or 9mm.
     

    jmb79

    Sharpshooter
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    0   0   0
    Apr 3, 2008
    426
    16
    Wyoming
    Has anyone thought of using quick shock round for self defense. Rounds that fragment on impact. So if ou hit center mass I think this might cause serious damage. if the person isn't wearing thick cloths. What go you guys think?

    Quick shok and other similiar fragmenting rounds lack the penetration necessary to reach vital organs that will bleed a lot.
     

    musclecarr

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 11, 2010
    210
    16
    Owen County
    I've read stories about people having to kill BEARS with a .22 with only a few shots. So I would say, Yes, it is ok for self-defense. Just empty the magazine! Then reload quickly!
     

    longbarrel

    Expert
    Rating - 91.7%
    22   2   0
    Nov 1, 2008
    1,360
    38
    Central Indiana
    I don't know about anyone else on here, but you won't catch me standing in front of one anytime in the near future. Knock down power or not, getting shot by one is gonna hurt, mame, kill, and least wound.
     

    dtkw

    Expert
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 18, 2009
    998
    18
    Bloomington
    Depending on the perps if they're armed to the teeth or not. Otherwise, I wouldn't use anything less than a 9mm or .38 spc.
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,807
    99
    Greenfield, IN
    Man, it is all about shot placement. I second jmb79 in many regard to .22: Fragmenting, Glaser or other exotic garbage one can find in the annals of the "hallowed" halls of ways to get one's self killed should be avoided in ALL calibers that will "underpenetrate" in FMJ or RN form.

    I was of the mind at one point that a RELIABLE .22 (now that is a trick :D ), with a larger capacity mag loaded with Mini-Mags, Stingers or similar high velo .22 HP would be a decent (albeit not my first choice) low penetration HOME defense weapon (notice home, not self). A reliable 10/22 loaded with decent ammo is okay in my book (please note again, only okay, not trustworthy) if that is all you have. I would actually prefer a single shot scattergun over this selection.

    All about shot placement. 10 rounds of .22 LRN in the T zone of the face is much better than that flinched .45 shot to the arm. BUT, still not ideal. Alot of training and practice would be required, offsetting the potential advantage of carrying a .22 around the home or out and about (not a good idea in my book, there is too much to go wrong out and about, particularly barriers). As many others have said, it is a good killer, but not a stopper, and a mediocre killer even in that regard. Lots of folks will him and haw about how ".22 is the #1 killer of men on the planet!". Alot of accidents occur with .22 too due to their prevalence. A potentially skewed statistic in my mind.

    Great article!
     

    henktermaat

    Master
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    11   0   0
    Jan 3, 2009
    4,952
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    This is all my opinion, having done no research; but I think a .22 would easy to shoot more accurately, less kickback makes for faster, easier target acquisition. I say that, because I could put 20 rounds of .22 into the face of an attacker much faster and more accurately than I could put 10 rounds of 9mm into the face. I want the 30-round .22 magnum PMR-30 by Kel-Tec for this reason.
     

    randyb

    Sharpshooter
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    9   0   0
    Feb 4, 2009
    411
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    Quick shok and other similiar fragmenting rounds lack the penetration necessary to reach vital organs that will bleed a lot.

    Exactly. Shot placement and penetration is the best. As far as the .22, better than nothing, but I want the biggest hole(s) that I can, which means larger diameter bullets.
     

    U.S. Patriot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 87.5%
    7   1   0
    Jan 30, 2009
    9,815
    38
    Columbus
    I would not use a .22 for my main defence weapon. However, with my high capcity Kel-Tec I would not want 26 accurate rounds of .22 hollow points flying at me personaly.
     

    N_K_1984

    Expert
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    54   0   0
    Dec 15, 2009
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    My thoughts.

    Self defense situation: distance to target most likely 25 ft and under... I can only assume...

    If you're using a .22LR handgun, in self defense, and you can't land a well placed shot, 1. you're gun is not accurate, and you should NOT rely on it. ~OR~ 2. you cannot incapacitate your foe due to lack of focus in placing a good shot.

    My belief is that it's not always the gun, however the best gun in the world is not worth a dime without a good shooter behind it. I think if an individual keeps his/her calm and focus at that crucial moment, is armed with a quality firearm, and can place a well aimed shot when it counts, a .22lr handgun will indeed work. These are all variables, one can never know unless one is in said situation. I agree you can increase the likelihood of incapacitation of your foe with a larger caliber, but if you're a good shot, it is of MY belief that you could defend yourself with a quality .22lr firearm. OBVIOUSLY, if you're worried about your assailant wearing body armor or being better armed than you, buy a larger caliber. BUT if someone doubts you buying a .22lr handgun for self defense, ask them if they want to test your ability to wield that weapon. odds are, they will back down their argument. Of course, don't follow through with this test.... (duh)

    Know yourself, know your firearm, know how and when to use it safely and properly. Learn to weild your weapon of choice, there is no shame in seeking instruction.

    Me personally, I would buy the larger caliber. I like to increase my likelihood of survival. Can you win a drag race with a Honda Civic? Yes. Likely, no. If I'm building a drag car, I'll start with a Mustang first...

    My two cents...
     
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    PurdueGunLover

    Plinker
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    0   0   0
    Mar 25, 2010
    73
    8
    Delphi
    Recently I asked a similar question about carrying a pocket gun and a caliber that it should be chambered in. It seems all about opinion. I tried to take in all adviceand get the best of both worlds. I am buying a beretta 21a .22 and I am currently looking for a second small 9mm. This way I can practice drills regularly with a .22 multiple times a week, and shoot the 9mm once a week or so that I will be used to it. I plan on carrying the 9mm on my person and keep the .22 in the car. May be this is not the perfect situation, but the ammo will be cheap. To me the most important thing I get to shoot alot. Thats what I enjoy most about guns.
     

    sjstill

    Master
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    46   0   0
    Mar 24, 2008
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    Indy (west)
    I say that, because I could put 20 rounds of .22 into the face of an attacker much faster and more accurately than I could put 10 rounds of 9mm into the face. I want the 30-round .22 magnum PMR-30 by Kel-Tec for this reason.

    Sounds good from behind the monitor, anyway...
     
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