Scenario: Could I have detained this man?

[ultraspec]

Damn I go there all the time late at night. There are always people in there starting **** thats why schererville p.d. used to be in there off duty.

I dont worry much about it as I like to shop at night to avoid the soccer moms but Ive never hadf a problem there.

Now Hammond is another story, and I could write a pretty good short story about happened to me one night there.

 

[Jim W.]

Interesting that because you are a few inchs taller and heavier that you think you could handle this POS. I have met a few little guys that could handle themselves really well. Size doesn't always matter. I'm 5'9" and have taken guys down bigger then me.

You did just what I would. The only thing I would of done different was yell at the guy as loud as I could to get more attention so to have more witnesses.

Jim

 

[Robert Richardson]

Did the VW stink that bad?

 

[aikidoka]

I think you did the right thing. Not the most satisfying in some ways but still the best choice.

 

[aikidoka]

Damn I go there all the time late at night. There are always people in there starting **** thats why schererville p.d. used to be in there off duty.

I dont worry much about it as I like to shop at night to avoid the soccer moms but Ive never hadf a problem there.

Now Hammond is another story, and I could write a pretty good short story about happened to me one night there.

I must be lucky. I don't think I've ever seen *** going on in either store. What happened in Hammond? I go there nearly every weekend and open carry. no problems yet.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Interesting that because you are a few inchs taller and heavier that you think you could handle this POS. I have met a few little guys that could handle themselves really well. Size doesn't always matter. I'm 5'9" and have taken guys down bigger then me.

You did just what I would. The only thing I would of done different was yell at the guy as loud as I could to get more attention so to have more witnesses.

Jim

yep no matter how big they are, a full force shoulder to the knee cap always makes them cry for mommy

 

[Fargo]

As to detaining the guy if he actually damaged the vehicle, you have to figure out what constitutes a misdemeanor involving a "breach of peace."

IC 35-33-1-4
Any person
Sec. 4. (a) Any person may arrest any other person if:
(1) the other person committed a felony in his presence;
(2) a felony has been committed and he has probable cause to believe that the other person has committed that felony; or
(3) a misdemeanor involving a breach of peace is being committed in his presence and the arrest is necessary to prevent the continuance of the breach of peace.
(b) A person making an arrest under this section shall, as soon as practical, notify a law enforcement officer and deliver custody of the person arrested to a law enforcement officer.
(c) The law enforcement officer may process the arrested person as if the officer had arrested him. The officer who receives or processes a person arrested by another under this section is not liable for false arrest or false imprisonment.
As added by Acts 1981, P.L.298, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1982, P.L.204, SEC.7.

Keep in mind that an LEO cannot make an arrest for misdemeanor criminal mischief (vandalism) unless the offense was committed in the officer's presence. If the monetary loss reaches the felony level, the officer can make the arrest.

Here is a case which elaborates on "breach of the peace" in the context of this statute.

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/07060707pdm.pdf

It is our duty to harmonize statutes such as these when they apparently conflict, Merritt v. State, 829 N.E.2d 472, 475 (Ind. 2005), and we believe that the common law requirement of actual violence or the imminent threat of actual violence toward person or property best does so. We believe that reasonable force may be used and/or a citizen’s arrest may be properly effectuated regarding misdemeanor conduct under Indiana Code sections 35-33-1-4(a) and 35-41-3-2(a) and (c) only when that conduct amounts to actual violence or the imminent threat of actual violence toward person or property.

Also, be aware that if you are going to use force to execute an arrest not justified under 35-31-3-2, you almost certainly have to do so within the requirements of:

IC 35-41-3-3
Use of force relating to arrest or escape
Sec. 3. (a) A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person's escape if:
(1) a felony has been committed; and
(2) there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony.
However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under section 2 of this chapter.

As such, although the above case does outline the application of "reasonable force" to misdemeanor arrests under 35-31-3-2, outside of those circumstances there is no legal justification that I am aware of to use ANY force to execute a citizens arrest for a misdemeanor. Consequently, many misdemeanor arrests are legally impossible to do unless the arrestee is perfectly compliant.

Either way, it is legally a very treacherous area and I would be hesitant to try to effect a citizen's arrest on anyone in any but the most egregious of circumstances.

Best,


Joe

 

[Patrolman1981]

IMO I would not suggest you detain or attempt to detain anybody unless they have committed or are attempting to commit a forcible felony. (robbery, battery, murder, attempting to enter your residence or your vehicle when you are in it, the later justify deadly force.) This will keep you out of hot water in both criminal and civil courts.

 

[POC]

IMO I would not suggest you detain or attempt to detain anybody unless they have committed or are attempting to commit a forcible felony. (robbery, battery, murder, attempting to enter your residence or your vehicle when you are in it, the later justify deadly force.) This will keep you out of hot water in both criminal and civil courts.

:threadjack: What if I come home and find someone breaking into my house?

 

[Patrolman1981]

POC....Residential entry as well a burglary are both felonies, so in answering your question you would be justified in detaining somebody in this situation. However if you come home and find some thug trying to break in your house lethal force would NOT be justifed UNLESS of course if the would be thug is armed or you feel your life is threatened. IMHO. But I'm no lawyer.

 

[dross]

The issue here isn't whether you can detain the guy as much as it is how intelligent it would be to do so. You have to consider what the situation might escalate into. I assume you were armed, what if it turned into a struggle and the guy grabbed your gun? What if he had a gun to begin with? It would be one thing if he was hurting someone else, or perhaps even if he was taking a bat to your car or stealing something valuable from it. In this case, why not just get his license plate and call the cops?

Being armed requires you to see several chess moves ahead, not just react to what is happening at the moment.

 

[warangelcometh]

Tough call man. I admire you for keeping your cool though. It's hard not to pound those thug types into the ground. He probably didn't learn his lesson with the close encounter and will need a good whoopin to send the theme home someday. Unfortunately these types of people don't fight fare so be careful should you run into him shopping again.