Santorum: Separation Of Church And State 'Makes Me Want To Throw Up'

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  • lucky4034

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    There is no such thing. Why would I want to support implementing such that would limit religious peoples' rights to participate in government? They have just as much right to influence government as agnostics, atheists, and sasquatch-ists. (They cannot create a federal 'state religion' though)

    See this is where there seems to be some confusion.... maybe on my end.

    WHERE HAS ANYONE SUGGESTED THAT CHRISTIANS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE GOVERNMENT???

    I see comments like this all the time when the discussion of separation of church and state comes up and they are simply off based. Until you can show me that the government is restricting your right to practice religion, then Its gonna be hard to convince me that religion should have any influence on government discussions.

    The very idea that you can try to insert religious influence on the governmental process contradicts the whole point of freedom of religion in every sense of the phrase. You are free to practice any religion you want... but when you try to design a "FREE" government yet try to define it using religious parameters, then its no longer "FREE".

    This is one of the major reasons the Pilgrims left England 500years ago, because the government was designed around religious practices that didn't coincide and interfered with the Pilgrim's own religious beliefs and freedoms.

    This is also the reason why Iraq and Afghanistan have proven to be a huge waste of life and time. Those people over there CAN'T set up a stable government because they are too worried that the "other" religion will come into power and impart a system that will be unfair for the rest. If they could only bring themselves to keep religion at home... we would have had a complete and strong government set up in those countries YEARS AGO.

    Yes this country was originally built by white Christians back when 99.9% of the population was white and Christian and it worked ok then. But now we are a melting pot of different "FREE" races and religions and if we are going to continue to subscribe to the freedoms we all enjoy, then unfortunately race and religious beliefs are rights that should be left at home... unless of course those rights are being violated.

    maybe I'm wrong?? but I'd love to hear why....
     

    sbcman

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    What about the non-believers? Even though you have free will, what do you think gives you the right to try to convince them of your views? That sounds like you're pushing your views onto others. Most non-believers I know really do not appreciate that.

    Irony much?

    The non-believer is upset that views are pushed on them by the believer because they don't believe the believer has the right to do so. Yet, the non-believer does believe they themself have the right to tell the believer that they shouldn't do this. Now the non-believer is using their right to push their belief on the believer, while denying the believer that exact same right. Granted, the non-believer may not be trying to "push" views onto the believer- except for this big one- the believer does not have the right to share their faith (which is really what "pushing" is generally termed as by the non-believer, just sharing).

    Maybe it's just the way I was raised or something, but I expect people of conviction, be they Christians or atheists or whatever to actually live and encourage others to their point of view. And when they do so, I don't view it as some affront to my "rights." I will absolutely disagree with any faith (atheism included) apart from Christianity, but I can respect people for taking a stand on what they believe. What is a conviction worth otherwise?

    Again though, in keeping with this thread, I will be the first to say that we should value our Republic and never turn to a theocracy. You cannot, nor should we try, to separate the men and women in office from their faith. But government is not the pulpit of Christianity or Islam or Atheism. Government should labor to protect the liberty of man and the freedom of religion. Kennedy had it right.


    (Which, on a sidenote, I was thinking about that Kennedy quote as him not speaking for the Catholic church. I'm sure there was a big ole sigh of relief in the Vatican after that one:laugh:)
     

    Denny347

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    It would be nice to NOT know the religiousness of our President (or candidate). It would be refreshing for this subject not even come up, it should not matter.
     

    lucky4034

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    Irony much?

    The non-believer is upset that views are pushed on them by the believer because they don't believe the believer has the right to do so. Yet, the non-believer does believe they themself have the right to tell the believer that they shouldn't do this. Now the non-believer is using their right to push their belief on the believer, while denying the believer that exact same right. Granted, the non-believer may not be trying to "push" views onto the believer- except for this big one- the believer does not have the right to share their faith (which is really what "pushing" is generally termed as by the non-believer, just sharing).

    Wrong... show me where a non-believer has ever told you that you SHOULD NOT believe in GOD or you will be punished??

    I don't go around trying to convince the world they should be atheist. I don't grab a copy of Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species" and stand on the street corner with a megaphone... or deliver pamphlets door to door. And I don't try to impart any Atheist standards into the government machine.

    As a matter of fact... 99% of the people I know, don't know that I don't believe in God. The only ones that do are the ones who have asked me. Most of them probably assume that I am a Christian.

    And guess what....

    1. I don't have any other God
    2. I don't create any likeness of myself in heaven above
    3. I rarely say God's name in vain and even have instructed my 11yo daughter to refrain from using the terms "OMG," "Geez" or "Gosh Dang it" because as of right now she is Catholic (as is her mother) and I think that if she is gonna practice a religion she should understand and respect its by laws.
    4. I typically don't work on Sunday
    5. I honor my mother and father the best I can.
    6. I don't murder
    7. I don't commit adultery
    8. I don't steal
    9. I'm not much of a liar
    10. I don't covet a whole lot... I'm pretty content with what I have.​

    Amazing isn't it?

    I also don't punch random people in the face, nor take a dump in the middle of a public side walk. I don't do drugs and rarely have any alcohol and don't drive impaired. I am respectful of others and take pride in not being obnoxious or inconsiderate in public or private.

    (although I have been known to be a prick on occasion on a public forum or in spirited competition. Sue me)
     

    sbcman

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    Wrong... show me where a non-believer has ever told you that you SHOULD NOT believe in GOD or you will be punished??

    I don't go around trying to convince the world they should be atheist. I don't grab a copy of Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species" and stand on the street corner with a megaphone... or deliver pamphlets door to door. And I don't try to impart any Atheist standards into the government machine.

    As a matter of fact... 99% of the people I know, don't know that I don't believe in God. The only ones that do are the ones who have asked me. Most of them probably assume that I am a Christian.

    And guess what....
    1. I don't have any other God
    2. I don't create any likeness of myself in heaven above
    3. I rarely say God's name in vain and even have instructed my 11yo daughter to refrain from using the terms "OMG," "Geez" or "Gosh Dang it" because as of right now she is Catholic (as is her mother) and I think that if she is gonna practice a religion she should understand and respect its by laws.
    4. I typically don't work on Sunday
    5. I honor my mother and father the best I can.
    6. I don't murder
    7. I don't commit adultery
    8. I don't steal
    9. I'm not much of a liar
    10. I don't covet a whole lot... I'm pretty content with what I have.
    Amazing isn't it?

    I also don't punch random people in the face, nor take a dump in the middle of a public side walk. I don't do drugs and rarely have any alcohol and don't drive impaired. I am respectful of others and take pride in not being obnoxious or inconsiderate in public or private.

    Woooh! Looks like a button has been pushed. My post reflected the comments posted in it- you were not targeted.
     

    lucky4034

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    Maybe it's just the way I was raised or something, but I expect people of conviction, be they Christians or atheists or whatever to actually live and encourage others to their point of view.

    So you are saying that you encourage the Anti-Christ?

    Let me answer that for you.... "Of course I do not... that would be blasphemy"

    You don't respect people as much as you tolerate them. The same way I tolerate "Witnesses" who used to wake me up every Saturday morning knocking on my door when I lived in California... the same way I tolerated street pastors with megaphones who damned me to hell on many occasion when I lived in Pensacola Florida... because I have to and because I am strong enough to politely turn a cheek at their advances. Why? Because they are for the most part harmless and I understand that they very mildly affect my way of life (if at all) and from my personal standpoint, they are just doing what they have been convinced is appropriate although I personally feel that it is not.

    However, once you try to inject any of those believes into an entity that "governs" me... then I have a problem because those beliefs are not my beliefs and therefore I shouldn't be "forced" to abide by them... the same reason why the Pilgrims decided to leave England.

    If the country converted to 90% Muslim tomorrow and the next Cabinet in office tried to make everyone in America face East and pray to Allah twice a day... you would not like it. And while nothing that extreme is being imparted now... So when there is a discussion about birth control regulation... the last thing I want to hear is how the Catholic Church disagrees. And even more annoying is having a candidate use his religion to gain votes by suggesting it will be the driving force behind his decision making when he gets voted into office.

    So again... you tolerate others having conviction just so long as it doesn't infringe on your own. If the Anti-Christ appeared and this country was divided by his followers and God's followers and threatened your way of life... then you would be drawing lines in the sand ready for a war.

    I just don't see the importance of having religion weigh affect on politics... The fact that no one seems to know Obama's religion is the one thing I commend about that man.


    Woooh! Looks like a button has been pushed. My post reflected the comments posted in it- you were not targeted.

    I guess I am a one of those "non-believers" you generalized, so I figured that this being a public discussion on an open forum, that I could participate as well.
     
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    sbcman

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    So you are saying that you encourage the Anti-Christ?

    What?:dunno:

    I am saying that if someone has a conviction, it does not suprise or offend me that they actually stand on that conviction and let it be known. Take your post a moment ago. You explained your convictions, explained your way of life and justified your way of life as equal to any Christians way of life by your keeping the Ten Commandments. I do not agree with your position, but I'm not offended that you stated it and explained it.
     

    lucky4034

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    What?:dunno:

    I am saying that if someone has a conviction, it does not suprise or offend me that they actually stand on that conviction and let it be known. Take your post a moment ago. You explained your convictions, explained your way of life and justified your way of life as equal to any Christians way of life by your keeping the Ten Commandments. I do not agree with your position, but I'm not offended that you stated it and explained it.

    Ok... let me re-phrase it...

    "You RESPECT and ACCEPT the Anti-Christ for having his convictions?"

    and the answer is of course NO. You tolerate people as long as they don't directly affect you. And isn't this what this discussion is about?

    Should religion have weight on political decision making?
     

    Pocketman

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    Me thinks this thread has become a lot like the GOP primary contest. A lot of non-productive crap is be flung around.

    From the OP
    "I don't believe in an America where the separation of church and state are absolute. The idea that the church can have no influence or no involvement in the operation of the state is absolutely antithetical to the objectives and vision of our country...to say that people of faith have no role in the public square? You bet that makes me want to throw up."
    Little things, like the 30 Years War, caused people to leave Europe in search of freedom. The Catholics and Protestants made today's Sunni and Shiite conflict appear minor. Before the Revolution, most of the colonies had an official religion with taxing authority. Preachers were licensed by the government. This is what the framers wanted to remedy.

    The church should have no role in government, and vice versa. However, to think that a person's religion would not effect his or her actions in a job, is not realistic. I take issue with Santorum's comment because it comes across as all or nothing. Of course people of faith have a role in public. People of all faiths, as well as non-believers, have a role. Our nation's strength comes from diversity.

    What makes me sick is the inflammatory rhetoric that's being irresponsibly uttered for the sole purpose of diverting focus from real issues that politicians do not want to address.
     

    bigg cheese

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    Ok... let me re-phrase it...

    "You RESPECT and ACCEPT the Anti-Christ for having his convictions?"

    and the answer is of course NO. You tolerate people as long as they don't directly affect you. And isn't this what this discussion is about?

    Should religion have weight on political decision making?

    Well, if he's being honest about what he wants, then he gets respect on not being a liar. Buuuuuuuuuut, anyone who knows who the "anti-christ" is as described in the Bible, he's the biggest deceiver and liar ever to grace the planet with his presence, so that's not really a fair comparison, because, being he anti-christ, he can't be honest, can he?

    The facts are this:

    Separation of Church and State does not exist in any founding document. The courts (packed with leftists at the time) are wrong to suggest that it does.

    The founders wanted freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM. It's a very important distinction. They didn't want a national religion established by the government, and that isn't fair to suggest that's what Santorum or any other candidate wants, the same way that it's unfair that the media keeps asking Santorum about a national ban on contraception (which no candidate is pitching and would never pass even if it was being pitched).

    Any person in a position of power will use their scruples to make their decisions. It is that person's choice to decide where he gets those scruples, and it is the public's choice to accept the man and his scruples by way of a vote, but if he is honest and consistent, then so what? Don't vote for him. The good and honest man will not violate the law, but will try to change it in favor of his scruples.

    Santorum is being open and honest -- make your decisions, but don't criticize him for honesty.

    Even a so-called non-religious man will do that -- every time.

    There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here. I'd suggest some books by David Barton if any of you are interested in our founders and what they believed on the subject. Better yet, read all of their correspondence and speeches, not just snippets here and there, and you'll find their intent.
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    What????

    I never said I agree with the current morality, but DC cannot regulate morality. Also Santorum is the biggest Washington DC insider, so he has no morals.

    I do not want anyone regulating how I or anyone else lives their lives as long as if doesn't hurt others.

    My apologies. However, you do seem to be laboring under the impression that Santorum, just by his expressing his beliefs - in this case the totally justifiable belief that while the Founders intended that no one religion be enshrined as the "State" religion, the idea that religion - specifically Christian beliefs - should be EXCLUDED from public discourse, is automatically advocating religious control of the government, which is demonstrably not true. Nor is your assertion that Santorum is "the biggest Washington DC insider, so he has no morals" demonstrably true, it is merely your opinion, which has been carefully shaped by the MSM - unless of course, you have some personal experience with him and his iniquity?

    Last of all, the "morality" expressed by Santorum served this country (and others) well for 200 years or more. Don't you find it interesting that the erosion of all our Constitutional freedoms has progressed so rapidly since the introduction of the "new morality" and "political correctness" starting in the late 60's? Think about that.
     

    spencer rifle

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    An atheist looks at Christians sharing their religion:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhG-tkQ_Q2w

    So, if Christians share their convictions, they are "pushing their opinions down our throat." They are intolerant, hateful slugs.
    If they don't, they are wimpy, hateful, convictionless slugs.

    Well, if the shouting is just as loud from both extremes, we must be in about the right place.

    Jesus loves you. I'm trying. (Some would say "very trying.")
     

    Paul

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    My apologies. However, you do seem to be laboring under the impression that Santorum, just by his expressing his beliefs - in this case the totally justifiable belief that while the Founders intended that no one religion be enshrined as the "State" religion, the idea that religion - specifically Christian beliefs - should be EXCLUDED from public discourse, is automatically advocating religious control of the government, which is demonstrably not true. Nor is your assertion that Santorum is "the biggest Washington DC insider, so he has no morals" demonstrably true, it is merely your opinion, which has been carefully shaped by the MSM - unless of course, you have some personal experience with him and his iniquity?

    Last of all, the "morality" expressed by Santorum served this country (and others) well for 200 years or more. Don't you find it interesting that the erosion of all our Constitutional freedoms has progressed so rapidly since the introduction of the "new morality" and "political correctness" starting in the late 60's? Think about that.

    The erosion of state freedoms started in 1861 with Lincoln. Then went full on when they enacted the 17th Amendment. The loss of states rights goes hand and hand with the eroding of individual rights. Also Constitutional freedom has been taken away since the Supreme Court started interpreting "Constitutional law" instead of just the Constitution itself (look into Justice John Marshall).
     

    lucky4034

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    Well, if he's being honest about what he wants, then he gets respect on not being a liar. Buuuuuuuuuut, anyone who knows who the "anti-christ" is as described in the Bible, he's the biggest deceiver and liar ever to grace the planet with his presence, so that's not really a fair comparison, because, being he anti-christ, he can't be honest, can he?

    The facts are this:

    Separation of Church and State does not exist in any founding document. The courts (packed with leftists at the time) are wrong to suggest that it does.

    The founders wanted freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM. It's a very important distinction. They didn't want a national religion established by the government, and that isn't fair to suggest that's what Santorum or any other candidate wants, the same way that it's unfair that the media keeps asking Santorum about a national ban on contraception (which no candidate is pitching and would never pass even if it was being pitched).

    Any person in a position of power will use their scruples to make their decisions. It is that person's choice to decide where he gets those scruples, and it is the public's choice to accept the man and his scruples by way of a vote, but if he is honest and consistent, then so what? Don't vote for him. The good and honest man will not violate the law, but will try to change it in favor of his scruples.

    Santorum is being open and honest -- make your decisions, but don't criticize him for honesty.

    Even a so-called non-religious man will do that -- every time.

    There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here. I'd suggest some books by David Barton if any of you are interested in our founders and what they believed on the subject. Better yet, read all of their correspondence and speeches, not just snippets here and there, and you'll find their intent.


    Hold up....

    A. I don't criticize Santorum for being honest... actually, NOWHERE in any of my posts in this thread do I even mention his NAME? :dunno:

    Funny how you introduced him? My posts are about whether religion should be in politics, yet in this discussion you have derived me attacking Santorum in some way. Maybe for a reason? Probably the same reason why Mr. Santorum gets asked so many questions about his religion by the media.... much more than any other candidate??

    What I will say, is that ANY CANDIDATE who feels compelled to wear his religion on his sleeve because he knows it appeals to a very large demographic of voters is out of line, although I can't really blame him as it is the sheeple who give him the motivation to be so prominent with it. If it was detrimental to his chances of getting voted in wouldn't do it would he?

    If Barack Obama is indeed Muslim... its no wonder its a secret... because in this Country at this point in time... being Muslim would KILL YOU IN THE POLLS.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    As far as the "founders"... I don't remember mentioning them either? But since we are on the subject, obviously they did a great job drawing up the framework of this country... and their ideas have held up pretty sturdy over the short span of this nation. However, the times they are a changing and while NO ONE would care to discuss it... eventually its going to need some updating... some of that old world thought is going to need edited out, but right now it seems to be doing just fine.
     
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