AndreusMaximus
Master
So because NATO didn't acquiesce to these demands, it means that Ukraine, which is not a NATO member and has no say in NATO's decisions, provoked a war with Russia? I'm not sure how that adds up."And the war didn't start in February last year, it started in 2014."
Maiden started the war, back then it was a proxy war(Russia was fighting a proxy war after the revolution,no one really questions that. The USA was as well overthrowing an elected government.).
The treaties Putin sent asked three things. No expansion of NATO. Removal of missile systems(the NATO infrastructure he mentions). The third was second class NATO declared for nations in the baltic,which he outlined as not being allowed to house nuclear capabilities.
Russia’s draft agreements with NATO and the United States: Intended for rejection?
Steven Pifer examines Russia's proposed draft agreements with NATO and the United States on security in Europe, and whether they could be an opening bid in serious negotiations or are intended to be rejected and used as a pretext for military action against Ukraine.www.brookings.edu
Or, if you're saying that Ukraine is a puppet state controlled by NATO, so Putin invading Ukraine really is his way of going to war with NATO, I guess there may be some small degree of truth to that. But Putin was still the one who launched things into an open, full-scale war, and he did so without any actual military action taking place against Russia on the part of either NATO or the Ukraine.
To say that the war started in 2014 is simply not true. Yes, there were shady dealings going on, and rebellion/infighting being instigated and supported within Ukraine, by both sides, and all of that was part of the root causes leading up to the war. But before Putin launched his invasion in February 2022, neither side had taken actual, military action against the other.
Yes, that was a fairly similar situation. Thankfully, though, we never launched an open, full-scale invasion of Cuba. Putin, however, has done just that to Ukraine.
Completely different. We were fighting alongside the Vietnam and Korean people against communist oppressors. There was never any doubt that the vast majority of Koreans were 100% on our side, and opposed to the communist takeover. By the time the Vietnam war happened, the communist propaganda machine here in the USA had got spun up, so they were able to cloud public opinion a lot more, but if you dig past their lies you'll see that it was very much the same story regarding the actual people of Vietnam. We were never attempting to annex or subjugate either Korea or Vietnam, and had the support of the vast majority of their populations in helping fight off a communist takeover. Completely the opposite of what Putin is doing to Ukraine.
Well, I will have to turn that question back to you; do you think who started it mattered? You seem to be going to great lengths to try to prove that NATO somehow started the whole thing, but if it doesn't matter, I'm not sure why you keep posting these articles.Actual proposed treaty(link found on brookings.edu)
Honestly at this point does why it started even matter? I mean we have caused ourselves and our allies quite a bit of damage. How do we mitigate that damage,can we?
Can this end in anything other than WW3? At this point it does seem to be winding down,with focus being moved to China and the support of our allies ending(Poland,England,and others).
Of course we didn't gain anything. When a totalitarian, communist regime launches a full-scale invasion of their neighboring country, I really doubt anybody is going to gain anything.
