Reloading questions...cleaning brass (SS) and primer removal

[Broom_jm]

Soooo One of those Noobs here....

Yes, there is clean brass and then there is shiny brass. However if there are people that want to have a mirror like finish on their brass, what is wrong with that? Most of us that reload are doing it as, let's face it, a hobby or to support something that we enjoy doing. There are a few weirdo's out there who feel that the zombies are real and "Need" to have 10K plus rounds to fight them off. If someone wants their brass to be beautiful before the next time they get it dirty again, then why judge. Yes we all know that it has no impact on functionality, but hey to each his own. Back to hobbies.... Let's take RC airplanes for example. Generally speaking do people buy one of these planes, tape it together, throw a motor in it, and go flying? Nope! They buy a kit, meticulously put the plane together making sure everything is perfect. They buy lots of little accessories like paint, electronics, propellers, fuel, boxes to put the plane on, etc. Then after all that, they make a pilot to "Fly" the plane with an authentic period costume and sunglasses. Do you ever actually see the pilot when it is in the air? Probably not. But hey! It looks cool! And if you want to make a replica of the Red Baron, then by god make his scarf freaking awesome!!!! Point being, if you want to make every single round to absolute, beautiful, perfection then so be it. If I have 1K rounds of twice fired loaded ammo, and someone else has 1K rounds of twice fired ammo that is bright and shiny, we still have 2K rounds of AMMO that we can go have fun with and make fun of that weirdo preparing for that zombie thing...

OK, so you're a reloading n00b, yet you claim most reloaders are wet-tumbling with stainless media. Have you taken a poll of all the reloaders you know? If you were to suggest that more people than 10 years ago are wet-tumbling, I could buy that...but do you have ANY proof that more than 50% of reloaders these days are getting away from dry media?

No, you don't. Because it's not true. Heck, there are probably more guys out there who reload, and have never tumbled any cases, wet or dry, than there are guys who use stainless media and a wet tumbler. I mean, you do realize that all you really NEED to do is make sure there is no debris on the outside of the case...right?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with polishing brass until your wife can put on her lipstick with it. If that floats yer boat, go for it! What I'm telling you is that shiny brass serves no real purpose, other than being easier to find on the ground.

For the record: I'm calling BS on jblomenberg16 and his M1 Garand story, as well. Not buying it. When you dry tumble cases, then sift out the media in a purpose-made container, there is NO media left in the cases to get blasted down the barrel. That's hogwash, but if he'd like to provide a link to a scientific study, or even a subjective article from one of these shooters, I would be happy to read it.

As for the carbon buildup on pistol cases, think of it this way. If your brass has a smudge on it, take a guess what your barrel and action look like?!

I went to a local range when I lived out in California. This old-timer by the name of Al was already there, shooting his 6mm PPC. He had a reloading setup right there with him, at the bench. He had maybe a couple dozen cases with him. He'd shoot a group of 5 and then reload them. He was shooting the cases over and over. In-between, he wiped them with a rag, then neck-sized them. His targets were the size of a postage stamp...and his groups rarely exceeded that dimension.

Clean ammo is good; shiny ammo is STRICTLY aesthetics. Actually, there is one caveat to that: If you're concerned about possible neck or shoulder splits, making that area very shiny can help you spot problem areas. At the same time, making the head of a bottle-necked case very shiny can serve to hide incipient case head separation. For this reason, I will sometimes polish the neck/shoulder of certain batches of cases, to watch for this.

Other than that, making cases shiny is just something n00bs do when they first start loading their own instead of shooting factory ammo. Maybe it's some kind of residual angst over the whole process...I don't know. When you've been making your own ammo for 25 years, like I have, all you care about is perfect function and exceptional accuracy. "Pretty" is for wedding cakes and your wife's lipstick.

 

[warthog]

I'm no nOOb and I make my cases shiny. (32 or so years actually)

So what if I like everything to look as good as it can?

Those sort of general statements get me in trouble too...

 

[jblomenberg16]

OK, so you're a reloading n00b, yet you claim most reloaders are wet-tumbling with stainless media. Have you taken a poll of all the reloaders you know? If you were to suggest that more people than 10 years ago are wet-tumbling, I could buy that...but do you have ANY proof that more than 50% of reloaders these days are getting away from dry media?

No, you don't. Because it's not true. Heck, there are probably more guys out there who reload, and have never tumbled any cases, wet or dry, than there are guys who use stainless media and a wet tumbler. I mean, you do realize that all you really NEED to do is make sure there is no debris on the outside of the case...right?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with polishing brass until your wife can put on her lipstick with it. If that floats yer boat, go for it! What I'm telling you is that shiny brass serves no real purpose, other than being easier to find on the ground.

For the record: I'm calling BS on jblomenberg16 and his M1 Garand story, as well. Not buying it. When you dry tumble cases, then sift out the media in a purpose-made container, there is NO media left in the cases to get blasted down the barrel. That's hogwash, but if he'd like to provide a link to a scientific study, or even a subjective article from one of these shooters, I would be happy to read it.

As for the carbon buildup on pistol cases, think of it this way. If your brass has a smudge on it, take a guess what your barrel and action look like?!

I went to a local range when I lived out in California. This old-timer by the name of Al was already there, shooting his 6mm PPC. He had a reloading setup right there with him, at the bench. He had maybe a couple dozen cases with him. He'd shoot a group of 5 and then reload them. He was shooting the cases over and over. In-between, he wiped them with a rag, then neck-sized them. His targets were the size of a postage stamp...and his groups rarely exceeded that dimension.

Clean ammo is good; shiny ammo is STRICTLY aesthetics. Actually, there is one caveat to that: If you're concerned about possible neck or shoulder splits, making that area very shiny can help you spot problem areas. At the same time, making the head of a bottle-necked case very shiny can serve to hide incipient case head separation. For this reason, I will sometimes polish the neck/shoulder of certain batches of cases, to watch for this.

Other than that, making cases shiny is just something n00bs do when they first start loading their own instead of shooting factory ammo. Maybe it's some kind of residual angst over the whole process...I don't know. When you've been making your own ammo for 25 years, like I have, all you care about is perfect function and exceptional accuracy. "Pretty" is for wedding cakes and your wife's lipstick.

I think he was saying most reloaders do it (reloading) as a hobby, vs. doing it (wet tumbling). The way it was worded it was not immediately clear what "it" was referring to. I read it as "it = reloading."

Also, I'd be happy to refer you to the shooters I was talking to. One of them happened to be one of the top Garand shooters at this years match, and has been for some time. Their point was that the walnut media was leaving some fine residue inside and outside the case that over time caused the wear.

 

[Broom_jm]

Also, I'd be happy to refer you to the shooters I was talking to. One of them happened to be one of the top Garand shooters at this years match, and has been for some time. Their point was that the walnut media was leaving some fine residue inside and outside the case that over time caused the wear.

And my point is, without a controlled scientific experiment, with quantifiable wear patterns for a control group and for rifles fired with cases that were tumbled in corn cob media or walnut media, it's just so much speculation. The odds are very good that you were talking to someone who invested in a tumbler and stainless media, and who therefore must realize a benefit from doing so. When you understand that many granules of powder, that are not yet burnt, are chasing the bullet down the bore of a rifle, how can you ascertain whether it was the powder or a spec of dry media that caused additional abrasion?

It sounds like a lame attempt at justifying "pretty" brass.

Warthog just likes to be contrary...that's a known fact.

At the same time, I guess if a guy has a lot of time on his hands and wants to make his cases gleam...that really is OK. He's smart enough to avoid claiming it has anything to do with function or performance and he knows that if he was in a hurry, all he REALLY needs to do is make sure the cases are "clean".

 

[gregkl]

The lead scare is way, way over blown. People get lead exposure every day, it's natural in our soil and water, and have survived largely the same for thousands of years.

.

I agree. When I grew up we did so many things that today's younger generation would not even consider doing and we survived.

I tumbled my first two loads of brass in my vibratory tumbler yesterday. I really didn't see any dust. I wiped my finger across the lid when I was finished and it was clean. I spilled some media on the floor when I was emptying it, but no big deal to me.

And they are plenty clean for me. I have about 6 cases that I will re-tumble the next time I do a batch because they were still a little tarnished looking. But after 2 hours in the tumbler, the brass was as nice as buying a box of factory loads.

 

[ksick26]

Broom_jm I never said that most reloaders are wet tumbling. I would say that the vast majority of us tumble with a dry media. I was referring to the fact that most of us reload as a hobby or to support our hobby etc. Like I said in my initial post, not denying the whole clean vs shiny thing. What I am saying is why are so bent about people getting their brass really shiny? If they want to do it then let them have a great time doing it! They are purchasing items that are going straight back into the industry, supporting business' etc. I do not have a wet media tumbler. I do not have a dry tumbler. I use an ultrasonic cleaner. Someday I will most likely have both a dry and a ss media wet tumbler. Why not try both. It'll be fun!

 

[mospeada]

Why not try both. It'll be fun!

Because you're not a grizzled old time reloader if your brass ain't tarnished darnit!

And get off my lawn!

 

[jblomenberg16]

And my point is, without a controlled scientific experiment, with quantifiable wear patterns for a control group and for rifles fired with cases that were tumbled in corn cob media or walnut media, it's just so much speculation. The odds are very good that you were talking to someone who invested in a tumbler and stainless media, and who therefore must realize a benefit from doing so. When you understand that many granules of powder, that are not yet burnt, are chasing the bullet down the bore of a rifle, how can you ascertain whether it was the powder or a spec of dry media that caused additional abrasion?

It sounds like a lame attempt at justifying "pretty" brass.

Warthog just likes to be contrary...that's a known fact.

At the same time, I guess if a guy has a lot of time on his hands and wants to make his cases gleam...that really is OK. He's smart enough to avoid claiming it has anything to do with function or performance and he knows that if he was in a hurry, all he REALLY needs to do is make sure the cases are "clean".

I am an engineer by education and by trade, so appreciate your adherence to the scientific method. As I stated in my first post, the guy that is building the garands has been measuring throat erosion on several of the rifles he built. Those rifles that are firing rounds that were tumbled in walnut media were wearing faster than those being tumbled in SS. True, without a statistically significant sample size (>30 pieces) and a controlled DOE (would probably want a full factorial to test 4 media types), we cannot say conclusively.

At the same time, I would give them the benefit of the doubt, since they do appear to have a reasonable amount of credibility within the M1 Garand competition shooting community. If it is just BS, then they are doing a pretty good job backing it up with actual performance.

You seem pretty confident these guys are blowing smoke, but have yet to see you prove your point that it doesn't make a difference, or that shiny brass doesn't matter. So, lets say we agree to disagree, and get on to debating more important things, like if 9mm is better than .45ACP or vice versa.

 

[Broom_jm]

I am an engineer by education and by trade, so appreciate your adherence to the scientific method. As I stated in my first post, the guy that is building the garands has been measuring throat erosion on several of the rifles he built. Those rifles that are firing rounds that were tumbled in walnut media were wearing faster than those being tumbled in SS. True, without a statistically significant sample size (>30 pieces) and a controlled DOE (would probably want a full factorial to test 4 media types), we cannot say conclusively.

At the same time, I would give them the benefit of the doubt, since they do appear to have a reasonable amount of credibility within the M1 Garand competition shooting community. If it is just BS, then they are doing a pretty good job backing it up with actual performance.

You seem pretty confident these guys are blowing smoke, but have yet to see you prove your point that it doesn't make a difference, or that shiny brass doesn't matter. So, lets say we agree to disagree, and get on to debating more important things, like if 9mm is better than .45ACP or vice versa.

Getting enough guns, shooting the same load recipes, to make a suitable control group and sample size, would definitely be a challenge. Heck, the lot-to-lot variations of even 1 powder could cause differences in throat erosion that are equal to or greater than wayward bits of media?

I'm pretty confident that human nature is to believe that what you are doing...is what's best. You never notice all the (insert brand of car here) on the road until you start driving one.

The sample size on clean brass versus shiny brass is enormous, though. You've got untold millions of new rounds being fired every year, and a much smaller, though still statistically irrefutable number of reloaded rounds fired every year. The preponderance of those are not cleaned to a virgin brass shine and yet, they function perfectly and (gasp!) shoot some amazingly accurate groups. To put it succinctly: In the absence of any proof that shiny brass DOES provide some sort of tangible benefit, I have concluded that it does not. Every gun I've ever fired is in complete agreement with me. Believe it or not, before the advent of stainless steel pins and wet-media tumbling, guys reloaded all sorts of ammo that wasn't shiny...and it still worked!

OK, now I'm just bustin' yer chops...and I apologize. Funny thing is, I'm not as old as you'd think I am, from all the traditionalist reloading comments I make. It's just that, as I get older, I am less inclined to spend money or waste time on things that aren't really necessary. That's more of a young man's deal, maybe?

 

[fireball168]

Those rifles that are firing rounds that were tumbled in walnut media were wearing faster than those being tumbled in SS.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

A fellow went down this road a few years or so ago in Varmint Hunter magazine and it got me interested. I wasn't that enthralled with the methodology, decided then I would do it myself.

I've got two barrels waiting to be threaded and chambered that are from the same lot of steel and were rifled back to back on the same machine.

May be another year or more before projectile prices stabilize before I buy a bulk shipment to do the testing with.