Recommendations for a EDC/SD

[cp009]

I'm fairly new to the knife game. I currently carry a SOG flash 2, but I'm looking to buy a new better quality auto knife for EDC/SD purposes.

What are your recommendations for a price point of >$200?

TIA

 

[kawtech87]

Honestly for the sub $200 range your not gonna find many QUALITY autos.

Have you looked into Emerson knives? The wave is the fastest opening system in the industry, even faster than an auto. And it doesn't have any springs to wear out or break.

I hope to get my first Emerson soon. Just waiting for the money.

If you are dead set on an auto check out Protech. They have several models in your price range.

 

[cp009]

I wouldn't say I'm dead set on an auto but I definitely want something of quality how about assisted folders or just standard folders for SD.

 

[kawtech87]

Emerson. Just don't expect it to be pretty.

Protech makes an auto version of a couple different Emerson designs, and they are considerably nicer in appearance than a standard Emerson.

 

[bingley]

Ask yourself: what can I do with a knife? Then decide accordingly. Some people's fighting techniques require a knife with a special geometry that makes it useless for pretty much anything else. What kind of training have you had? That ought to be enough to tell you what kind of self-defense knife you need.

The knife is not a great weapon. You don't get much advantage in distance: if you can cut someone, he can probably hit you. It's not very powerful: you can't hack like with a machete or a sword, and your power is not amplified as with a stick. Fighting with a knife requires fluidity, speed, and sensitivity -- things that many people are not born with. But the biggest drawback in a state like Indiana is that you can be in a gun fight, and you'll be the proverbial man who brought the knife to a gun fight. If you ever end up having to defend yourself with a knife, you'd have done with with a lethal weapon.

If you train with different weapons, you'll discover it takes quite a bit longer to get good with the knife (than with a stick, the sword, the gun, etc.). And then you still won't have as much fighting power as you would with the other, better weapons.

So generally I guide people away from thinking of the knife as a defensive option, unless they already know, from the training they have received, they can use a knife effectively. Though having a knife may seem "badass," the pepper spray that those pretty blonde co-eds carry while jogging is probably better for you and me. (We can show off our badass-ness when shooting our AR with a tac vest, knee pads, and patches.) If you want a knife, think about doing practical stuff with a knife, like opening boxes and envelopes, whittling, and maybe batoning if the outdoor is everyday for you.

For EDC, I recommend the Benchmade Griptilian with a plain edge very highly. It's one of the best knives there is, and it's not expensive. It's the right size for most practical tasks. The blade geometry is strong without making it unwieldy. The tip is not prone to breaking off. There are fewer "hot spots" on the grip. It's visually pleasing. Finally, Benchmade has really great customer service.

You don't need an auto knife.

 

[kawtech87]

The Spyderco Civilian was designed to be used by people with limited or no formal instruction in knife fighting. It is intended for what Spyderco calls "hit and run" self defense. Originally it was meant for undercover DEA agents to have as a last ditch knife.

That is why I EDC one. I have no formal training in knife fighting so I use it as a last ditch BOGA (back off, get away) knife. It is not meant for day to day cutting chores and I agree with Bingley the Benchmade Griptilian is very hard to beat as an EDC user knife.

The Civilian is not a small knife though and the unique blade shape can take up most of your pocket. The Spyderco Matriarch is a smaller version of the Civilian and was marketed as a SD knife for women. But it is also a much handier size for EDC and there is a version available with an Emerson Wave feature.

Matriarch w/wave
Spyderco Matriarch 2 Emerson Wave Opener | GPKNIVES.com

Civilian
Spyderco Civilian | GPKNIVES.com

For a dedicated SD knife for someone with no formal instruction in edged weapon combat either of these are good choices.

But as Bingley also mentioned SD with a knife should be be avoided at all costs. If you don't know what your doing, You could easily end up hurting yourself just as badly or worse than your attacker. I know this but I still choose to EDC a dedicated SD knife as a last ditch tool.

 

[bingley]

The Spyderco Civilian was designed to be used by people with limited or no formal instruction in knife fighting.

The Civilian and its smaller sibling the Matriarch are both examples of a self-defense knife that really isn't good for much else. They are not EDC knives. It's awkward or even impossible to do some practical tasks. They are also not very robust, so forget about prying, batoning, or doing anything that might stress the knife. I think they come in only one flavor: serrated. So forget about a lot of tasks.

Kawtech is absolutely right that the Civilian is designed for people without much formal training. But even then, it's not foolproof. I can imagine some "commonsensical" ways of using a knife that just wouldn't work with the Civilian, but would work with other knives. I'm sure you can figure them out after thinking a bit.

 

[kawtech87]

I still think for the best combo of SD/EDC an Emerson with the Wave would be hard to beat.

As long as the OP isn't wanting a show piece knife I think an Emerson would serve him well.

 

[docapos]

I have to +1 an emerson, I carry their karambit and love it as a backup/fighting knife.

 

[bingley]

I still think for the best combo of SD/EDC an Emerson with the Wave would be hard to beat.

I had an Emerson. I had the famed CQC7, actually. It was a perfectly decent knife. It had the nice tanto shape, chisel grind, etc. But I could find comparable knives at a substantially lower price. In spite of its name, I didn't think it stood out as a "fighting knife." The ergonomics also leaves something to be desired. I don't know about their other knives, but they seem expensive. For an EDC, I'd count on the certainty of eventually breaking or losing the knife. If I had an Emerson, it would be my safe queen except I don't like its looks.

I have a knife with the "Wave" feature. It's a nice convenience, but it doesn't seem all that useful for fighting. If you practice, you can draw, open your folder, and cut in one stroke fairly fast. If you need the fraction of the second that you save from opening the knife with the "Wave" feature, you're already in the fight. In that case, I might just forego drawing the knife and get an advantage in timing instead.

On the other hand, some people really swear by Emerson knives. You have to find one that fits your needs, budget, style, etc.

 

[tradertator]

If your looking for an auto @ around $200 bucks, I'd go with a Microtech Ultratech. Microtech sets the bar in the auto knife world, and the Ultratech's are currently made in Elmax steel which is excellent stuff. I agree with these guys that an OTF auto knife might not be the most practical tool, but there is no substitute if your wanting something cool.

 

[TB1999]

The knife is not a great weapon.

You sure about that?

 

[darinb]

$200 get you a ton of options. Id go to a place where you can handle as many knives as possible and start a list and then narrow it down to a few based on your preferences then hold your cash and research prices in stores and net and don't forget places like the classifieds here and other knife/gun forums. Ive had great results on forums. Let us know what you choose!

 

[kawtech87]

I had an Emerson. I had the famed CQC7, actually. It was a perfectly decent knife. It had the nice tanto shape, chisel grind, etc. But I could find comparable knives at a substantially lower price. In spite of its name, I didn't think it stood out as a "fighting knife." The ergonomics also leaves something to be desired. I don't know about their other knives, but they seem expensive. For an EDC, I'd count on the certainty of eventually breaking or losing the knife. If I had an Emerson, it would be my safe queen except I don't like its looks.

I have a knife with the "Wave" feature. It's a nice convenience, but it doesn't seem all that useful for fighting. If you practice, you can draw, open your folder, and cut in one stroke fairly fast. If you need the fraction of the second that you save from opening the knife with the "Wave" feature, you're already in the fight. In that case, I might just forego drawing the knife and get an advantage in timing instead.

On the other hand, some people really swear by Emerson knives. You have to find one that fits your needs, budget, style, etc.

I agree you can certainly find comparable and even better knives for the money you will spend on an Emerson. But I'm the kinda guy that if I get something pretty I tend to want to keep it that way. I even had reservations about using my Griptilian when I first got it because I thought it looked to good to want to screw it up. Now that it is beat up a little I don't mind using it. Emersons come ready to be used. The few that I have seen and handled felt like sturdy user knives out of the box and they are not pretty so I wouldn't care to use it out of the box. I think the designation "CQC" is just a marketing gimmick as most of the blade shapes offered appear to be more utilitarian in design. Personally I like the way the CQC-15 looks and feels in hand. It is probably one of the more comfortable knives I have ever held. The "wave" is also just really a handy feature more than an advantage, your right.

You sure about that?

Yes, when compared to a machete or a baseball bat a folding knife offers very little in terms of an advantage. Who ever has the bat has the reach and will be able to hit you before you are able to cut them. And obviously compared to a pistol the knife becomes even less desirable as a SD option.

 

[grunt soldier]

Yes, when compared to a machete or a baseball bat a folding knife offers very little in terms of an advantage. Who ever has the bat has the reach and will be able to hit you before you are able to cut them. And obviously compared to a pistol the knife becomes even less desirable as a SD option.

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of people in this thread. All these especially against this and that type scenarios. I mean if you could plan for every situation it would be no problem right. Your gun would be drawn and the bad guy would just be standing there not moving! But that isn't how stuff works. A lot of people only semi well trained are very very deadly with in 21 feet of you with a knife. I mean deadly enough you won't be able to even draw your pistol. Or cock the bat/machete back and swing. The above post just makes no sense to me. Yes if we were old school out on the battlefield fighting with swords and clubs a folder would be silly. But in this day and age it is a very valuable tool in your toolbox for survival. If we are fighting and nobody has a gun out yet we are going to be in pretty close. It won't be pretty and your both probably going to bleed. The key is to make the other person bleed more. You may take a hit from the bat but in the process if you stab that knife up under his armpit he probably won't be able to swing it again. Hell even if you miss and just get a nice deep slash on his arm it would be hard for him to keep using it.

Get some training under you belt. A small fixed blade will be better just for the fact you don't have to open it but in any fight that will involve up close and personal methods. The will and desire to live play a huge role.

Emersons are amazing knives. Ernie knows his **** when it comes to fighting. Especially with knives. He has designed all his knives with that mission in mind. Yes some are still also designed to be good at other tasks also. If you have a chance attend one of his or mercops classes.

 

[Bradsknives]

IMO, if you are going to use a knife as a last ditch self defense tool, it's best to have a knife that is solely dedicated for that purpose. Some of you on here talk like a knife is going to be your primary self defense weapon and in reality it really should be looked upon as a last ditch tool for close quarters encounters. Can a regular EDC knife also serve as a self defense knife...absolutely, but It will be lacking certain features that a knife that is designed and dedicated for self defense has. When you are put in a situation (last ditch) you will use whatever you have. One other thing, whether it's an EDC knife or a knife that is dedicated for self defense, neither of them will do you a damn bit of good if you don't have training and practice that training on a regular bases.

As far as Emerson knives, Ernie Emerson is an accomplished martial artist who developed Emerson Combative Systems, which has been taught to police officers, military units and civilians. He is considered one of the godfathers for self defense using edged weapons. I'm about sure when he designs a knife some thought goes into the design from his experience in edged weapon training. Emerson's knives have been designed for use by the Navy Seals and used by NASA in outer space.....they should be good enough for the average "Joe citizen".

 

[kawtech87]

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of people in this thread. All these especially against this and that type scenarios. I mean if you could plan for every situation it would be no problem right. Your gun would be drawn and the bad guy would just be standing there not moving! But that isn't how stuff works. A lot of people only semi well trained are very very deadly with in 21 feet of you with a knife. I mean deadly enough you won't be able to even draw your pistol. Or cock the bat/machete back and swing. The above post just makes no sense to me. Yes if we were old school out on the battlefield fighting with swords and clubs a folder would be silly. But in this day and age it is a very valuable tool in your toolbox for survival. If we are fighting and nobody has a gun out yet we are going to be in pretty close. It won't be pretty and your both probably going to bleed. The key is to make the other person bleed more. You may take a hit from the bat but in the process if you stab that knife up under his armpit he probably won't be able to swing it again. Hell even if you miss and just get a nice deep slash on his arm it would be hard for him to keep using it.

Im not disagreeing with you, a folder can effectively be used as a SD tool. But what I highlighted is key to using any knife effectively for SD. We aren't all trained soldiers with combat experience (thanks for your service and much respect btw). I'm just a mechanic, and while I would love to take all the training courses I could my schedule and financial situation make it impossible to constantly be training. You are right we cannot plan for every scenario all we can do is be prepared for a variety of scenarios as best we can and hope that if we are presented with a problem that it is us that comes out on top. I imagine the scenario I posted earlier as actively being attacked by a bat/machete not simply being threatened with one, Because that is what happened to me. If someone is coming at you, rapidly closing distance while swinging the bat would you still have time to draw and effectively use your knife? If you have never taken a hit to the dome with an aluminum bat I can tell you it don't feel good and you will most likely, like I was, be stunned and disoriented for some time afterwards if not completely unconscious. Needless to say he won that fight and I barely had time to do anything to react except put my arms up and try to block it as much as possible. And I still got hit, not full force but enough that I was in no shape to keep fighting. I had a folding knife in my pocket at the time too.

So, real world example of bat/folder, bat won. Would it be the same for everyone? Maybe, maybe not. If I had my knife drawn and ready I could have maybe cut him once but I still would have gotten hit and I still would have lost the fight.

Before anyone discounts my story as "internet tough guy talk" just look up my post history. I don't do that kinda stuff. I don't claim to be a badass and anyone who knows me well may call me a lot of things but a liar will never be one of them. This happened when I was 15 and cocky, like most boys that age. It was a dispute on the ball diamond one summer day, about who was safe and who was out. I was pitching and the batter and I did not agree that his team mate was out (he was). I turned to walk back to the mound when my buddy yelled, LOOK OUT! all I could do was try to block it. No time to pull a knife, no real way to defend against it and I was not prepared for the attack. Honestly it never should have gone that far, but that is my experience with an attack by someone with a bat.

It hurts.

 

[bingley]

You sure about that?

Yeah, I'm sure. I've trained in knife fighting for about eight years, the last few of which I instructed. I'm guessing that a part of the disagreement I'm having with some people here comes from the differences in the scenarios imagined. You might be thinking about defending yourself, with some training, against some stupid thug-wannabe without any training or real courage. A knife might work for that. I train for defending oneself against trained, armed, and coordinated opponents. I'd want every advantage I can get, as would they. A knife ranks pretty low in the totem pole of weapons. That's not to say the knife isn't dangerous, but there are more dangerous weapons out there. I cannot imagine anyone familiar with knifework or weapons would disagree with that.

Have you ever tried realistic sparring with knife vs. sword or stick? You'll see the difference right away. (By "realistic" I don't mean the fun game of tag that some people play where a touch gives you a "point"-- a balanced, strong cut that could potentially end a life is what counts.) The greater reach easily makes itself felt, not to mention power. I'm not a fan of the baseball bat, but it's got greater reach than the knife, and it has so much power that you cannot "take a hit" and keep going.

What about knife at 21' vs. gun? You know, the favorite fact on the internet. That's an offensive scenario for the knife. The gun has to detect the attack and then respond. That takes more time. But that doesn't apply to you. You're a defender. You're the one who has to detect the threat and then respond, possibly by drawing. You're the one who might need 21' of distance. Oh, guess what, you've got the knife.

What I'm trying to say is that defending oneself with the knife isn't easy. It can be done, but the the average Joe, there are better options for the untrained person. For many people who ask about the "best fighting knife" on internet forums, having a knife is about being tough, macho, badass. They'd eschew options that are more realistic for them, like pepper spray, a rape whistle, and a good pair of sneakers. You'll never be able to drag them into a school to learn to fight. I'd really discourage you from thinking of the knife as your primary self-defense tool unless you've done at least a few years of training. By that I don't mean take a weekend class every six months. I mean train for hours every week with an instructor. (I'm very skeptical of people who, without prior experience, take these weekend classes once in a while. Sure, you can learn something, but (1) it's hard for me to imagine squeezing eight years' worth of stuff into a few weekends, and (2) you need a lot of programming to make all the movements instinctive in a fight.)

Kawtech's story feels very realistic to me, as it sounds like other encounters I've heard. I'm sorry for what happened to you, but I'm glad you gained some crucial fighting knowledge from it. That's how attacks happen in real life. Nobody ever walks up to the middle of the deserted street at high noon and say, "This town ain't big enough for the two of us," as tumble weeds roll by. People will try to sneak up on you and hit you from your blind spot. There are a lot of scumbags like that. For us civilians who grew up in safe neighborhoods, the most useful part of training in martial arts is actually becoming aware. It's not that really nifty technique for slicing an artery. It's being able to pick up when there is something wrong. It's the activation of that primitive survival instinct so it's a lot harder for people to sneak up on you.

As for Emerson knives, I don't dispute the accomplishment of Mr. Emerson. But it's foolish to buy based on reputation. Buying the same fashion accessories as Lady Gag doesn't make you Lady Gaga. It just makes you a guy with a closet full of evidence of transvestitism. Do you even know that you plan to do the same thing with your knife, or have the same requirements?

 

[Bradsknives]

Everyone that is thinking about a knife for self defense needs to read this. It is from INGO's own "mercop".

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ime-opportunity-using-knife-self-defense.html

Justification, Time and Opportunity for using a knife for self-defense

Some people who carry both knives and guns for self-defense have illusions of grandeur based on movies, TV, and "attack" training. By attack training I mean training in which the gun or knife is in their hand and they get a signal to attack.

I am sure that people here get tired of me when in response to a "which knife is better or best" thread I ask if a knife has a trainer available, whether it is a folder or fixed. If it is fixed, it needs to have a sheath as well so you can train with the carry/deployment option you plan to use. Any and all edged weapons can be pressed into use as a weapon if you can get it into your hand. But that is not what people here are asking, they are implying that they plan to carry a particular knife as a primary or secondary deadly force option. In that case, you will need a trainer and training, and I am not talking about just knowing how to use a knife against a person.

You need a trainer, and at least a training buddy. Write down some scenarios in which you believe you would have justification, time, and opportunity to use your knife for self-defense. Then play a few of them out. Doing exactly this is what has led me to the following conclusions about the reality of using a knife for self-defense:

#1 There are basically three ranges in which you would have the time and opportunity to draw your knife for self-defense.

You have chosen to draw your knife and show it to someone at a distance in an attempt to intimidate them to stop what they are doing.

They are moving towards you and due to the totality of the circumstances you believe that you have the justification, time, and opportunity to draw your knife for self-defense.

You are locked up or in a clinch, standing or on the ground, and based on the totality of the circumstances you believe you have the justification, time, and opportunity to draw your knife for self-defense.

#2 That the most probable scenario in which you have the justification, time, and opportunity to deploy your own knife is in the clinch scenario, or at least well within arm’s reach.

#3 That once you have a specific tool in your hand you become focused on using that tool against your attacker as your defense, and not part of your defense in addition to moving or getting a physical barrier between you and them.

#4 That the slowest way to physically stop a human is by blood loss even though it often causes eventual death. The majority of wounds caused by knives are those to the circulatory system. An attack using a blade usually has no immediate effect on the central nervous or structural system (comprised of the bones, muscles, ligaments, and tendons). A disruption of these two systems is achieved by crushing/impact injuries most efficiently delivered by personal (feet, hands) and impact weapons.

#5 Between 1998-2004 my agency sent me to train with several well-known, and lesser known edged weapon instructors. They were all excellent instructors, but much of their material was culturally based. I learned a lot about how to use a knife while it was in my hand, like many people who are into knives. What was not covered was use of force for using an edged weapon, as well as no time was spent talking about time and opportunity. Force on force that was conducted was solely focused on the knife as your only tool. Any violence not done with the knife was forbidden.

#6 After paying for me to attend a bunch of schools, my agency wanted me to write a policy for edged weapons and conduct training. Try as I might it was hard for me to develop any scenarios in which this issued or authorized folder would be a better option than their pistol, baton, or flashlight. Of course this was based on every call I had ever been on or heard of, so it did not mean it could not happen. For this reason, our general orders read that "any weapon or tool issued, or commonly carried by the officer could be used to apply force as long as the force was otherwise justified"

#7 Purposely designed and improvised impact weapons are much more easily carried, or found in any environment.

#8 That even when a knife or pistol is used, they are more effective when used in combination with open hand combatives, especially within arm’s reach. Just because you have a knife in your hand does not mean you give up an opportunity to smash an attacker’s head into a wall.

#9 People who talk about only being allowed to carry a knife for self-defense have not thought about the effectiveness of impact weapons.

#10 After retiring, I had the epiphany that turned into Inverted Edge Tactics. During the Folder into the Fight Drill, with people from all different background including some with lots of edged weapon training, we found the following:

When you are getting punched in the head with boxing gloves, your mind does not want you to reach down to draw a weapon of your own. It wants you to protect your head.

That if you attempt to draw your weapon without creating distance from your attacker you are going to take some serious shots before, during, or whether or not you get your weapon out.

That because of the pummeling, a very large number of weapons are dropped.

That if they got the knife out and counter attacked, the vast majority were slashes across the upper arms and chest of the attacker with very few stabs regardless of prior training.

That once people used the inverted edge grip, cuts were by default landing between the legs and under the armpits. Even with a training knife, the cuts, especially between the legs, had a noticeable impact on the attacker.

If during the drill the good guy was knocked down, they were able to land the same cuts if the attacker followed them to the ground.

That after completing the drill, the good guy completely understood the idea of Central Nervous System disruption and would be able to not only articulate it in court, but have confidence in its use.

In closing, the knife, like all other tools and tactics, should have training time dedicated to it based on its likelihood of use. Offensive prowess does not equal defensive skill.​

 

[kawtech87]

Kawtech's story feels very realistic to me, as it sounds like other encounters I've heard. I'm sorry for what happened to you, but I'm glad you gained some crucial fighting knowledge from it.

Thanks, that is the gospel truth of it. Or atleast what I can remember. It was 11 years ago and I still think about it and what could have happened or how I couldv'e handled things differently to avoid it ever coming to blows. But yes I did learn a valuable lesson that day and it has stuck with me ever since. SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! I am firmly convinced that is the best SD tool anyone can ever hope to master.