Questions about volunteer "Church" security

[melensdad]

Just a few questions for the folks who work as volunteer church security at your local parish.

• If your parish has a day care center/school on it, and if your pastor/priest/rabbi has officially designated you a member of the security team, are you still in violation of the law if you carry a gun?
• If you are officially a member of the church security team, do you have to follow the laws that pertain to private security guards? FOLLOW UP to this, if you are armed with a gun, do you have to ALSO follow the laws that pertain to ARMED private security guards?
• Do you have to have additional liability insurance to cover you for your actions, or does the church, or is that just ignored?

 

[Eddie]

§ 35-47-9-1. Exemptions from chapter
This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
History. As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.

 

[JBusch8899]

IANAL, but a church doesn't appear to be exempted

IC 25-30-1-5
Exceptions to licensing requirements
Sec. 5. This chapter does not require any of the following persons to be a licensee:
(1) A law enforcement officer of the United States, a state, or a political subdivision of a state to the extent that the officer or employee is engaged in the performance of the officer's or employee's official duties.
(2) Any person to the extent that the person is engaged in the business of furnishing and obtaining information concerning the financial rating of other persons.
(3) A collection agency licensed by the secretary of state or its employee acting within the scope of the employee's employment, to the extent that the person is making an investigation incidental to the business of the agency, including an investigation of the location of a debtor or a debtor's assets in a property that the client has an interest in or a lien upon.
(4) An attorney or employee of an attorney to the extent that the person is engaged in investigative matters incident to the delivery of professional services that constitute the practice of law.
(5) An insurance adjuster to the extent that the adjuster is employed in the investigation and settlement of claims made against insurance companies or persons insured by insurance companies if the adjuster is a regular employee of the insurance company and the insurance company is authorized to do business in Indiana and is complying with the laws regulating insurance companies in Indiana.
(6) A person primarily engaged in the business of furnishing information for:
(A) business decisions and transactions in connection with credit, employment, or marketing; or
(B) insurance underwriting purposes;
including a consumer reporting agency as defined by the Fair Credit Reporting Act (15 U.S.C. 1681 et seq.).
(7) A retail merchant or an employee of the retail merchant to the extent that the person is hiring a private investigator for the purposes of loss prevention investigations for the retail merchant's retail establishment.
(8) A professional engineer registered under IC 25-31 or a person acting under a registered professional engineer's supervision, to the extent the professional engineer is engaged in an investigation incident to the practice of engineering.
(9) An architect with a certificate of registration under IC 25-4, to the extent the architect is engaged in an investigation incident to the practice of architecture.
(10) A land surveyor with a certificate of registration under IC 25-21.5, to the extent the land surveyor is engaged in an investigation incident to the practice of land surveying.
(11) A certified public accountant with a certificate under IC 25-2.1-3, to the extent that the person is engaged in an investigation incident to the practice of accountancy.
(12) An independent consultant employed by the attorney general under IC 32-34-1-48, to the extent that the independent consultant is engaged in providing services for the attorney general.
(Formerly: Acts 1961, c.163, s.5.) As amended by Acts 1982, P.L.154, SEC.91; P.L.261-1987, SEC.2; P.L.234-1989, SEC.7; P.L.245-1995, SEC.1; P.L.42-1999, SEC.1; P.L.185-2007, SEC.11.

It would also seem reasonable that because the above exemption wouldn't apply, meeting all criteria of the state IC and licensing board would apply.

 

[melensdad]

Eddie, the exemptions noted may permit a gun on the grounds with permission, but they really don't answer the questions about if you now fall under the security guard provisions.

My concern being that if you actually have to use a gun to defend the church could you be in some sort of legal trouble (or could the church) if the security staff is not following the state laws for armed security guards?

 

[JBusch8899]

Eddie, the exemptions noted may permit a gun on the grounds with permission, but they really don't answer the questions about if you now fall under the security guard provisions.

My concern being that if you actually have to use a gun to defend the church could you be in some sort of legal trouble (or could the church) if the security staff is not following the state laws for armed security guards?

Probably answered in my post above.

 

[Vanguard.45]

Yeah, this is NOT a good idea

unless you are either a local/ state/ federal LEO or if you are insured against liability. Even insured, this may not be a good idea.

Stuff happens and being the big hero may not be worth it if you end up in jail, penniless, or dead! Just remember the crazed gun-wielding lunatic all of a sudden becomes a misunderstood, mentally ill, genuine family man overwhelmed by personal/ financial/ emotional problems once the family begins civil proceedings against you and the church. Of course, they are spinning it, but you have to get a lawyer to defend yourself and lawyers (if you haven't noticed) cost a LOT of money.

Better ways to serve the Lord, my friend.

Now, if you happen to be carrying and something erupts, then you might act fearing for the well-being of others or yourself, but to be the designated person RESPONSIBLE for protecting the sheep may not be a great idea.

Vanguard.45

 

[indykid]

unless you are either a local/ state/ federal LEO or if you are insured against liability. Even insured, this may not be a good idea.

Stuff happens and being the big hero may not be worth it if you end up in jail, penniless, or dead! Just remember the crazed gun-wielding lunatic all of a sudden becomes a misunderstood, mentally ill, genuine family man overwlmed by personal/ financial/ emotional problems once the family begins civil proceedings against you and the church. Of course, they are spinning it, but you have to get a lawyer to dfend you and lawyers (if you haven't noticed) cost a LOT of money.

Better ways to serve the Lord, my friend.

Now, if you happen to be carrying and something erupts, then you might act fearing for the well-being of others or yourself, but to be the designated person RESPONSIBLE for protecting the sheep may not be a great idea.

Vanguard.45

No flame intended, but it sounds like you would rather stand by unarmed and do nothing, except maybe pray that you don't get shot? I am sorry, but in the words of that famous saying, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[Vanguard.45]

That's not what I am saying,

and using a cleche as a defense in court gets you gang raped in prison, killed, or sued into poverty.

All I am saying is that it is better not to be DESIGNATED as the church security guy if you are not a LEO who has some sort of formal authority and backing on which to fall if things go badly.

If you want to act to protect the innocent, then have at it. I just wouldn't advise you to be the "church security guy with a gun."

The whole "I'd rather be judged than carried" is a catchy phrase, my friend, but it is used often by individuals to justify putting themselves in the proverbial trick bag.

I just don't want to see one of our forum members in the trick bag.

Vanguard.45

 

[E5RANGER375]

and using a cleche as a defense in court gets you gang raped in prison, killed, or sued into poverty.

All I am saying is that it is better not to be DESIGNATED as the church security guy if you are not a LEO who has some sort of formal authority and backing on which to fall if things go badly.

If you want to act to protect the innocent, then have at it. I just wouldn't advise you to be the "church security guy with a gun."

The whole "I'd rather be judged than carried" is a catchy phrase, my friend, but it is used often by individuals to justify putting themselves in the proverbial trick bag.

I just don't want to see one of our forum members in the trick bag.

Vanguard.45

i think? i agree with vanguard.45, if you are designated "security" you are the first target of a shooter. So i wouldnt take the job unless only you and the preacher knew it was you. Best to just remember these famous words that have been repeated on INGO time and time again: "concealed means concealed"

 

[ATM]

The point here is that "authorized and/or designated to carry" is necessary if there is a daycare or school.

You don't get the legal choice to just carry if you please in this situation.

 

[Vanguard.45]

I guess I might let the pastor know I intended to carry.

If he or she is OK with that, then I'd carry. If not, then I might decide to worship somewhere else or stay home.

Being "authorized" to carry can be interpreted a lot of ways. Being "designated" as "the guy or girl who is going to be carrying and will be responsible for protecting the flock in case the bad man shows up and starts shooting" is something altogether different.

Vanguard.45

 

[Eddie]

Eddie, the exemptions noted may permit a gun on the grounds with permission, but they really don't answer the questions about if you now fall under the security guard provisions.

My concern being that if you actually have to use a gun to defend the church could you be in some sort of legal trouble (or could the church) if the security staff is not following the state laws for armed security guards?

I've been trying to do some research between chores and kids. Looks like you would need to get a license from the state:

Title 25. PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS
Article 30. PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR FIRMS, SECURITY GUARDS, AND POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Chapter 1.3. SECURITY GUARD AGENCY LICENSING
Current through 2009 Legislative Session
§ 25-30-1.3-7. Necessity of license
A person may not:
(1) engage in business as a security guard agency;
(2) solicit or advertise for business as a security guard agency; or
(3) represent or hold a person out as a security guard agency;
unless the person is licensed as a security guard agency under this chapter.
History. As added by P.L.185-2007, SEC.27.

Indiana Statutes
Title 25. PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS
Article 30. PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR FIRMS, SECURITY GUARDS, AND POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Chapter 1.3. SECURITY GUARD AGENCY LICENSING
Current through 2009 Legislative Session
§ 25-30-1.3-9. Qualifications for license; grounds for denial
(a) The board may not issue a security guard agency license to an individual unless the individual:
(1) is at least twenty-one (21) years of age; and
(2) demonstrates the necessary knowledge and skills, as determined by the board, to conduct a security guard agency competently.
(b) The board may not issue a security guard agency license to a business entity unless:
(1) one (1) officer, in the case of a corporation; or
(2) one (1) partner, in the case of a partnership;
meets the personal qualifications as set out in subsection (a), unless otherwise provided.
(c) The board may deny a license unless the applicant makes a showing satisfactory to the board that the applicant or, if the applicant is a business entity, the officer or partner referred to in subsection (b):
(1) has not committed an act which, if committed by a licensee, would be grounds for the suspension or revocation of a license under this chapter;
(2) has not been convicted of:
(A) a felony; or
(B) a misdemeanor that has a direct bearing upon the applicant's ability to practice competently;
(3) has not been refused a license under this chapter or had a license revoked;
(4) has not, while unlicensed, committed or aided and abetted commission of an act for which a license is required by this chapter;
(5) is not on probation or parole; and
(6) is not being sought under an active warrant against the applicant, officer, or partner.
History. As added by P.L.185-2007, SEC.27. Amended by P.L.3-2008, SEC.200.

Title 25. PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS
Article 30. PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR FIRMS, SECURITY GUARDS, AND POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Chapter 1.3. SECURITY GUARD AGENCY LICENSING
Current through 2009 Legislative Session
§ 25-30-1.3-23. Violations; fines; separate offenses; complaints
(a) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally violates this chapter commits a Class A misdemeanor.
(b) A person who is not exempt under section 6 of this chapter, who does not have a security guard agency license, and who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally:
(1) engages in business as a security guard agency;
(2) solicits or advertises for business as a security guard agency; or
(3) in any way represents to be a security guard agency;
commits a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) In addition to any other penalty imposed on the person, the court shall fine a person convicted of an offense under subsection (b) the amount of compensation earned by the person in the commission of the offense. Notwithstanding IC 35-50-3-2, the total fine imposed under this section may exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) if necessary to comply with this subsection.
(d) Each transaction under subsection (b) constitutes a separate offense.
(e) A complaint for a violation of this chapter or for an injunction under section 24 of this chapter is sufficient if the complaint alleges that a person or business entity on a specific day in a specific county:
(1) engaged in business as a security guard agency;
(2) solicited or advertised for business as a security guard agency; or
(3) represented to be a security guard agency;
without a security guard agency license.
(f) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally fails or refuses to surrender a security guard agency license issued under this chapter when the license is revoked by action of the board commits a Class A misdemeanor.
History. As added by P.L.185-2007, SEC.27. Amended by P.L.3-2008, SEC.202

Title 25. PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS
Article 30. PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR FIRMS, SECURITY GUARDS, AND POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Chapter 1.3. SECURITY GUARD AGENCY LICENSING
Current through 2009 Legislative Session
§ 25-30-1.3-20. Carrying weapons
This chapter may not be construed to authorize any licensee to carry any weapon.
History. As added by P.L.185-2007, SEC.27.

Title 25. PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS
Article 30. PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR FIRMS, SECURITY GUARDS, AND POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Chapter 1.3. SECURITY GUARD AGENCY LICENSING
Current through 2009 Legislative Session
§ 25-30-1.3-13. Employees of licensee
(a) A licensee may employ, to assist the licensee in the licensee's business as a security guard agency, as many unlicensed persons as necessary. The licensee is civilly responsible for the good conduct of all employees while the employees are acting on behalf of the licensee.
(b) A licensee shall maintain a record, relative to each of the licensee's employees, containing the following information:
(1) A picture taken within thirty (30) days after the date that an employee commences employment with the licensee.
(2) A full set of fingerprints of both hands of each employee.
(c) A licensee shall provide the board, at the board's request, a roster of all unlicensed persons employed by the security guard agency.
History. As added by P.L.185-2007, SEC.27.

Here is a link to that Board's compilation of statutes and administrative rules:

http://www.in.gov/pla/files/PISGLB.2009_EDITION.pdf

 

[moischmoe]

Title 25. PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS
Article 30. PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR FIRMS, SECURITY GUARDS, AND POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Chapter 1.3. SECURITYGUARD AGENCY LICENSING
Current through 2009 Legislative Session
§ 25-30-1.3-7. Necessity of license
A person may not:
(1) engage in business as a securityguard agency;
(2) solicit or advertise for business as a securityguard agency; or
(3) represent or hold a person out as a securityguard agency;
unless the person is licensed as a securityguard agency under this chapter.
History. As added by P.L.185-2007, SEC.27.

It always refers to a "securityguard agency". I think the hiring agency needs to be licensed, not the security guards (i.e. employees). That's the way i read it.

Are there any security guards out there? (Factories, amored trucks, stadiums, ect.) Are you licensed?

 

[Eddie]

Been looking at this body of law some more,

Just a few questions for the folks who work as volunteer church security at your local parish.

• If your parish has a day care center/school on it, and if your pastor/priest/rabbi has officially designated you a member of the security team, are you still in violation of the law if you carry a gun?

It looks like you would fall under the exception listed in 35-47-9-1.

• If you are officially a member of the church security team, do you have to follow the laws that pertain to private security guards? FOLLOW UP to this, if you are armed with a gun, do you have to ALSO follow the laws that pertain to ARMED private security guards?

If you are not doing it for money then you may not need the license, look at 25-30-1.3-5.

• Do you have to have additional liability insurance to cover you for your actions, or does the church, or is that just ignored?

If you are getting the license, that requires proof of insurance under 25-30-1.3-8, if you aren't getting the license you should probably make sure that you are covered by the church's policy or buy your own.

 

[indytechnerd]

Just a few questions for the folks who work as volunteer church security at your local parish.

• If your parish has a day care center/school on it, and if your pastor/priest/rabbi has officially designated you a member of the security team, are you still in violation of the law if you carry a gun?
• If you are officially a member of the church security team, do you have to follow the laws that pertain to private security guards? FOLLOW UP to this, if you are armed with a gun, do you have to ALSO follow the laws that pertain to ARMED private security guards?
• Do you have to have additional liability insurance to cover you for your actions, or does the church, or is that just ignored?

My ...

1. I don't have to be designated as a member of the security team, only authorized by the church. The highlighted portion below clears me on that. My opinion on this is that the authorization needs to be specific in stating that I am authorized to carry a firearm. I do not believe a note from the pastor saying "Indytechnerd is on the Security team here at the church." is sufficient.
For clarity, church = school in all aspects...

35-47-9-1. Exemptions from chapter
This chapter does not apply to the following:
...
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.

2. IANAL so take my comments for what they're worth. My take on this is NO. Why? Because I'm not a 'security guard'. I rate this similar to first aid/cpr. I'm not a medical professional, so I don't have to licensed by the state. I can, however, volunteer to be on the 'first aid' commitee or whatever and man the first aid booth and the church field day and picnic.

3. If I am involved in a bad shoot, it's all on me. Do I have to provide liability insurance before volunteering? Nope, for the same reasons as above. If I am involved in a good shoot, the authorization in #1 should cover the fact that I'm not breaking the law.

IC 35-41-3-1 Legal authority
Sec. 1. A person is justified in engaging in conduct otherwise prohibited if he has legal authority to do so.

Once that is cleared, then Indiana Code takes over...

IC 35-41-3-2 Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. ... No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

Again, IANAL, so my opinion is worth the paper it's printed on. I'm sure others will come behind me to clarify things even more.

 

[indykid]

Ok, I'll buy that, designated versus authorized.

 

[MontereyC6]

My ...

1. I don't have to be designated as a member of the security team, only authorized by the church. The highlighted portion below clears me on that. My opinion on this is that the authorization needs to be specific in stating that I am authorized to carry a firearm. I do not believe a note from the pastor saying "Indytechnerd is on the Security team here at the church." is sufficient.
For clarity, church = school in all aspects...

2. IANAL so take my comments for what they're worth. My take on this is NO. Why? Because I'm not a 'security guard'. I rate this similar to first aid/cpr. I'm not a medical professional, so I don't have to licensed by the state. I can, however, volunteer to be on the 'first aid' commitee or whatever and man the first aid booth and the church field day and picnic.

3. If I am involved in a bad shoot, it's all on me. Do I have to provide liability insurance before volunteering? Nope, for the same reasons as above. If I am involved in a good shoot, the authorization in #1 should cover the fact that I'm not breaking the law.
Once that is cleared, then Indiana Code takes over...


Again, IANAL, so my opinion is worth the paper it's printed on. I'm sure others will come behind me to clarify things even more.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[redneckmedic]

TAG

I like what I am seeing here... and best yet it's staying civil.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I kind of like what IndyTechNerd has to say...

What I was going to add, he beat me to. That just because you are on a "security team" doesn't automatically make you any kind of official "security guard".

A security guard, to me, implies a duty to assist. A voluntary security team member doesn't have any "duty" as they're not specifically employed.

-J-

 

[IMPD31323]

Would be interesting to look up websters definition of designated. Would a letter from your parish satisfy designated?