Open carrier wrongfully detained by police gets $21,000

[haldir]

If we had a loser pays that applies to the plaintiff and his attorney, you might be able to survive the removal of immunity. The problem wouldn't be the legitimate claims, it would be the thousands of frivolous suits they would have to defend just because they ticked off some piece of crap.

 

[Scutter01]

I am not at liberty to discuss my customers. so it may be hard to explain exactly how its not getting sued I worry about. If I fail its not about getting sued, its about going directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. There is no immunity for my case. The regulaitons themselves specifically say that I am personally liable. Me, not the company, me.

Understood. My question was more rhetorical anyway, and it sounds like you get my point even if it doesn't apply specifically to you.

 

[Jack Ryan]

If we had a loser pays that applies to the plaintiff and his attorney, you might be able to survive the removal of immunity. The problem wouldn't be the legitimate claims, it would be the thousands of frivolous suits they would have to defend just because they ticked off some piece of crap.

Then you'd have even more deadbeat scam artist and beggers suing every one or threatening to in order to extort money from any one they thought had some. If they lose they just go to dead beat court and file bankruptcy.

 

[jsgolfman]

Understood. My question was more rhetorical anyway, and it sounds like you get my point even if it doesn't apply specifically to you.

Yeah, sorry, I do get your point.

 

[whiskeytangofoxtrot]

Maybe at $21,000 a pop, the departments can emphasize what the LTCH allows to their officers here in Indiana.

 

[finity]

You literally cannot get out of bed in the morning without breaking at least one law. In fact, even staying in bed could probably be construed as loitering. You really want to go the route of having officers carrying around a lawyer with them vetting their every move just so they don't get sued? They deal with dirtbags all the time. The kind of people who would sue regardless just to cause grief for the arresting officer. Everyone wants their chance to roll the dice.

Do police need to know the law? Of course they do. But even lawyers who have dedicated their lives to knowing the intricate details of the law still have libraries of legal reference books at their disposal. This is why I said proper (and CONTINUOUS) training is a better answer. If they continue to commit violations under color of law after having been trained, then the department should hold them accountable.

I am personally held accountable to know & follow every law no matter how obscure or lacking in common sense. I will also be held accountable civilly, as anybody can sue anybody else for pretty much anything. We don't get special immunity because we thought we were following the law. How many people here have said that the police TOLD them it was OK to carry in situations that are CLEARLY against the law. Try to tell the judge that the police or a lawyer told them it was OK & see how that goes for them (similar to the dept legal counsel saying it's OK even when it's not).

There have been cases where the court found the officers actions wrong but granted them immunity by precedent alone. I'll see if I can find the recent case from another thread.

 

[mrjarrell]

As we are often reminded, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Does this not also apply to enforcers? If not, it should. Immunity just shifts the burden of payment to the innocent. Either an insurance company or the taxpayer, neither of whom violated anyone's rights. This is why immunity should not apply in these cases. Enforcers should think twice before committing to a course of action that does not involve immediate danger to their lives or the lives of others. Theirs is the power of life, death and ruination where we are concerned. Better that they not act than that they act in bad faith.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

Mr. Jarrell:

We as Law Enforcement officers are held civilly liable for our actions. See 42 USC (United States Code) 1983. In fact, we are being held more and more for perceived actions "what we should have done" vs. "what we did do." The federal code provides for civil relief, along with Indiana Law.

You would want to remove what immunities that we have, just because an individual "open carrying" was detained.

Would you have us ignore someone openly carrying some type of firearm in public? I would be willing to bet that you would be one of the first people to call the police when you see someone carrying a pistol for all to see. Apparently, you have never responded to a "man with a gun" call.

I would ask before you damn all police officers, to walk a mile or a heck of a lot more in our shoes. Maybe I'm asking too much. And with regard to frivolous law suits, I think there are way too many anyway, due to the proliferation of LTWS plaintiff's attorneys.

Again, attorneys "practice" law. Doctors "practice" medicine too. Usually on you.

 

[SMiller]

I am happy for the guy that got the $21000, I wish the PD would send out a memo to every other PD to keep this sort of thing from happening, we have rights! We are not scum bags out looking to rob people or cause trouble, we are out doing our own business and getting things done while protecting ourselfs and our loved ones.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
Would you have us ignore someone openly carrying some type of firearm in public?snip

Seeing as how open carrying in and of itself is not illegal, YES, that's exactly what I'd have you do. And if you violate the law by illegally detaining someone for that simple legal act, I think you should be thrown in jail. But $21k is a good start.

 

[Indy317]

Seeing as how open carrying in and of itself is not illegal, YES, that's exactly what I'd have you do. And if you violate the law by illegally detaining someone for that simple legal act, I think you should be thrown in jail. But $21k is a good start.

Open carry, in Indiana is illegal unless one is a member of the groups exempted from the law and/or has a permit to carry a handgun. This needs to be made very clear, as we have members here who don't yet have permits and new members joining weekly. In Indiana, it is a crime to carry a handgun, exposed or concealed, in your vehicle, or upon your body unless you have the permit and/or are a member of the exempted groups of people. I wouldn't want someone w/o a permit thinking they can open carry in this state and not get arrested.

 

[The Meach]

Open carry, in Indiana is illegal unless one is a member of the groups exempted from the law and/or has a permit to carry a handgun. This needs to be made very clear, as we have members here who don't yet have permits and new members joining weekly. In Indiana, it is a crime to carry a handgun, exposed or concealed, in your vehicle, or upon your body unless you have the permit and/or are a member of the exempted groups of people. I wouldn't want someone w/o a permit thinking they can open carry in this state and not get arrested.

Thats what Long guns are for

Who is up for an OC march in broad ripple?

 

[The Meach]

Thats what Long guns are for

Who is up for an OC march in broad ripple?

Or...er "Walk", OC "Walk"...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

You would want to remove what immunities that we have, just because an individual "open carrying" was detained.

Not only do we want that, it was done. When our civil rights are violated there must be a criminal, civil and administrative remedy to compensate us for our injuries.

Would you have us ignore someone openly carrying some type of firearm in public?

Ummm, yes, just as you ignore anyone else exercising their civil rights (just as the federal court in New Mexico stated). As the Supreme Court has held, you don't get to stop a car just to see if they happen to have an operator's license. You don't ge to stop someone based on their ethnicity.

I would ask before you damn all police officers, to walk a mile or a heck of a lot more in our shoes.

No one is saying that police officers do not have a difficult job, but 1. they stepped in the yellow footprints, 2. the proper remedy to address civil wrongs is to complain about the violations to our civil rights.

We get to complain, we get to speak, we get to sue. Afterall, who will guard the guardians?

 

[mrjarrell]

Mr. Jarrell:

We as Law Enforcement officers are held civilly liable for our actions. See 42 USC (United States Code) 1983. In fact, we are being held more and more for perceived actions "what we should have done" vs. "what we did do." The federal code provides for civil relief, along with Indiana Law.

You would want to remove what immunities that we have, just because an individual "open carrying" was detained.

Would you have us ignore someone openly carrying some type of firearm in public? I would be willing to bet that you would be one of the first people to call the police when you see someone carrying a pistol for all to see. Apparently, you have never responded to a "man with a gun" call.

I would ask before you damn all police officers, to walk a mile or a heck of a lot more in our shoes. Maybe I'm asking too much. And with regard to frivolous law suits, I think there are way too many anyway, due to the proliferation of LTWS plaintiff's attorneys.

Again, attorneys "practice" law. Doctors "practice" medicine too. Usually on you.

I carry a gun when I'm out. Why would I need to call a cop, if I saw another carrier?
I've seen neighbours carrying firearms and even sighting in their rifles fromt he back porch. Never once called one of you people. And, yes, I would rather you people ignored "man with a gun" calls, unless that person's actually doing something wrong or violent. Peaceful carrying shouldn't have an end result of someone in uniform pulling down on them and cuffing them, in a free society.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

[snip]

...unless that person's actually doing something wrong or violent.

Perception is reality. To many people anything that deals with a firearm is wrong or violent. When I tell friends that our local high school has a shooting team and shoots .22 rifles every Tuesday night inside the high school... "That's illegal, isn't it?"

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Perception is reality.

Blue, well, you many be correct and then we certainly have our work cut out for us.

Remember people in the South used to call the police because they saw an African-American or African-Americans were murdered as they were in the wrong place at the wrong time or because of a whim.

Perceptions in the South would not have changed unless someone sat at the lunch counter. There would still be separate bus seats if Rosa Parks did not do what she did.

We need to win the legal war to impact the cultural war. Police need to get used to seeing people exercise their civil rights.

 

[XMil]

I don't want the police to randomly stop people just for open carrying a gun. As has been pointed out, it (to me) is akin to stopping someone driving an automobile just to see if they have a license.

I saw my first "open-carrier" in Columbus this week at a gas station and the first thing that came to mind was to ask him if he posted here. Turns out he did and was (maybe not coincidentally) about the most pleasant person I dealt with that day.

It never occurred to me to call the police. The kid with the black hoody on who rode his pimped out bicycle into the store however did cause me to slip the M&P into the holster before I went in.

Now, if they are pointing it at people, by all means, haul them off to the pokey.

It is painful for those of us that grew up when there was still an idea that freedom was a good thing, and seeing someone with a gun (even kids) was common.

It's also sad to have witnessed the transition from LE taking a more passive role to an active roll. 25 years ago in my neck of the woods if you weren't actively breaking the law you could expect to be left alone. Now, it seems like LE goes out of their way at every possible opportunity to search out every possibility to find something to cite you for. The foul mouth and the arrogance don't help either. Of course that could just be the local knot-heads.

So, as far as being subject to the same laws as I am, I have no sympathy. So if you (NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR) have a job that you don't like, move on. I didn't care for the day to day life in the military, so I availed myself of other opportunities.

 

[ChrisK]

Blue, well, you many be correct and then we certainly have our work cut out for us.

Remember people in the South used to call the police because they saw an African-American or African-Americans were murdered as they were in the wrong place at the wrong time or because of a whim.

Perceptions in the South would not have changed unless someone sat at the lunch counter. There would still be separate bus seats if Rosa Parks did not do what she did.

We need to win the legal war to impact the cultural war. Police need to get used to seeing people exercise their civil rights.

+1... Could not have said it better myself.

 

[Prometheus]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse should work both ways IMO.