On Preservation of the Union at Any Cost

[Kirk Freeman]

"Mr. Freeman, under what authority did the United States have to declare war on a foreign nation to stop a foreign nation from committing an act that was not illegal in either nation? Under what authority did the United States act to liberate slaves in 1861 when slavery was not made illegal by Congress?"

I and others have answered this for you already. If you want to play obtuse, then that is on you.

Mr. Freeman, you are saying that Lincoln's plan to free the slaves was to create a war and free slaves through periodic intervals of collection and release? What a horribly ill-conceived, inefficient, and frankly revisionist mechanism for accomplishing a goal. And, as slavery was legal in the United States, you still have to answer the question of what authority the United States had to effect such a plan.

As the North advanced into the South, slaves flocked to Union lines in order to be free. There was no "plan" to initially free the slaves (other than say John Brown and that didn't work out too well). The plan was to defeat the bandits in Montgomery and end the insurrection that the CSA was.

The Northern advance became a de facto liberation of the slaves.

If, as you claim, the North merely wanted to free the slaves in the South, why did the North not extend the South an offer that if the slaves were immediately freed, the South would be free to live as they wished, free from northern interference?

You are floundering here.

The North wanted to defeat the South and end the insurrection. Only a minority wanted to abolish slavery at the start of the Civil War.

You don't get to commit Treason and then live as you wish. You get to die on the end of a rope.

You keep repeating this tired and long-disproven SPLC talking point.

Rubbish. Who gave the Cornerstone Speech and what was it about?

I'll answer the second part, you can tell me who gave the Cornerstone Speech. Your side gave a speech confirming that the South fought the Civil War to protect slavery and defend White Supremacy.

It's right there for all to see. You think you would be proud of his honesty.

 

[LP1]

15 pages of this??? Can we talk about something more productive? Perhaps instead we could discuss how the moon landing was faked, how the Holocaust never happened, or how Obama wasn't born in Hawaii.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Can we talk about something more productive? Perhaps instead we could discuss how the moon landing was faked, how the Holocaust never happened, or how Obama wasn't born in Hawaii.

The Lost Cause religion is very powerful, but we shall destroy it.

 

[deal me in]

The pro-Lincoln crowd just isn't capable of 2nd level thinking. To them slavery is bad so Lincoln/union side must be good. That's as far as they can get. The possibility that both sides were wrong is to mind-blowing to comprehend.

 

[HoughMade]

Let me guess....you're a Libertarian.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The pro-Lincoln crowd just isn't capable of 2nd level thinking. To them slavery is bad so Lincoln/union side must be good. That's as far as they can get. The possibility that both sides were wrong is to mind-blowing to comprehend.

The South was right, they just choose the wrong issue in trying to prove it. One of the great ironies in American History. States should retain powers not given to the federal govt, but when that power involves individual liberties, they were quite short sighted.

 

[HoughMade]

I person can believe in state's rights according to the Constitution without believing in secession or the right to enslave.

 

[deal me in]

Let me guess....you're a Libertarian.

Not a member of any party, but I support libertarian principles so I'll accept the label. Let me guess, you're a statist?

 

[deal me in]

I person can believe in state's rights according to the Constitution without believing in secession or the right to enslave.

How many deaths is too many when opposing the right to secede? You're apparently fine with 200k plus. how many are you willing to sacrifice to keep people living under a govt that they don't want to live under? Is 500k to many? 1 million? Whatever it takes?

 

[HoughMade]

Not a member of any party, but I support libertarian principles so I'll accept the label. Let me guess, you're a statist?

Assuming anyone who disagrees with you is not as intelligent as you...the true mark of a libertarian. Never would I have predicted that a movement would view smug self-satisfaction as recruiting technique.

What I am is a resident of the real world, not a theoretical construct.

 

[HoughMade]

How many deaths is too many when opposing the right to secede? You're apparently fine with 200k plus. how many are you willing to sacrifice to keep people living under a govt that they don't want to live under? Is 500k to many? 1 million? Whatever it takes?

Whatever it took.​ Not a fan of traitors.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I person can believe in state's rights according to the Constitution without believing in secession or the right to enslave.

As can I, in theory. The problem, is that the Constitution acknowledges slavery in it's text. And since the states governed the institution for almost 100 years, prior to the federal govt attempting to put the brakes on it, it could easily be seen as a serious power grab by the federal govt to weaken the states. In the technical sense, slavery should have been abolished only via an amendment that didn't need a war to make come to pass.

 

[mbills2223]

Whatever it took.​ Not a fan of traitors.

Nor was the Crown.

 

[Kutnupe14]

How many deaths is too many when opposing the right to secede? You're apparently fine with 200k plus. how many are you willing to sacrifice to keep people living under a govt that they don't want to live under? Is 500k to many? 1 million? Whatever it takes?

Lol, you're conveniently leaving the "other" people. 200K dead fighting to keep millions enslaved? Yep, I'm ok with it.

 

[deal me in]

Assuming anyone who disagrees with you is not as intelligent as you...the true mark of a libertarian. Never would I have predicted that a movement would view smug self-satisfaction as recruiting technique.

What I am is a resident of the real world, not a theoretical construct.

It's not necessarily about intelligence. Even very intelligent people believe things without good reason or logical support. To be honest, I think different brains are just wired differently. Anyway give me a break, libertarians are ridiculed regularly on this board.

 

[deal me in]

Whatever it took.​ Not a fan of traitors.

To me this is the heart of the argument. I Don't want to live under a government that would force me to kill people hundreds of miles away simply because they want to govern themselves. You do, nothing more to discuss.

 

[deal me in]

Lol, you're conveniently leaving the "other" people. 200K dead fighting to keep millions enslaved? Yep, I'm ok with it.

I would be ok with it if it were voluntary. I don't understand how anyone can think it's a good idea fr government to have this power.

 

[Henry]

Let's not kid ourselves. A discussion of historical happenings is something we as Hoosiers can have. What's going on here is not a discussion of historical happenings but a blatant attempt to rewrite it it.

Again, I'm not buying your attempt to paint these arguments in a noble light.

Trying to make the CSA out to be oppressed victims is one method of admittance into the faction. Digging up ten year old internet posts of other members is another. Setting up trip wires and shotguns to shoot tax assessors is yet another. There's many ways to join, Kirk can probably make you some copies of the newsletters.

Speaking of a "blatant attempt to rewrite it", "setting up trip wires and shotguns to shoot tax assessors" may be a good example of a blatant attempt to rewrite a post I made. Never did I advocate setting up shotguns to shoot tax assessors.

Disagreeing about facts, Sir, is one thing. Making them up as your comment above appears to is something entirely different.

As for this thread, I have only skimmed it to see if Kirk Freeman addressed my request that he show which parts of the articles I posted are "made up". I did not notice his response but will look again later more closely.

There are several other comments which I want to read more closely when time permits me to do so with appropriate attention.

Yours happened to catch my eye as it appears to be a distortion of a post I made in another thread.

 

[Compatriot G]

Here is a little bit of forgotten history to think about:

Corwin Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kutnupe14]

Here is a little bit of forgotten history to think about:

Corwin Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That was a smoke and mirrors job.