Nazi prison guard found living in U.K.

[PatriotPride]

It's a tough choice. At the very least, his pension should be cut off. The real question here, I think, is "should the man be held accountable for his actions, or quite possibly his INACTION"? "I was just following orders" was not found to be a justifiable defense at the Nuremburg trials---why should it apply to him? Unless the man was blind and deaf, he most certainly saw atrocities on a DAILY basis---and the fact remains that he did nothing to stop them, and has been living comfortably in the UK of all places in relative comfort. Take his pension at the very least. He WILL be judged for his actions and inactions accordingly.

 

[PatriotPride]

I'm not condoning his death. Assuming it can't be proven that he actually murdered anyone. But he should be held accountable, in the exact same way that his fellow soldiers were.

Yes, you hold conscripted soldiers accountable. Unless this guy was full blown retarded, he knew the difference between right and wrong. Plenty of people under Nazi oppression knew the difference too, and even in the face of death they did the right thing. This guy is still collecting a Wehrmacht pension for crying out loud.

Read up on Trawniki:

Trawniki concentration camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My God. You and I actually agree on something. Color me surprised. That being said, I do agree with you wholeheartedly. The man knew right from wrong, and is STILL collecting a pension...for overseeing the slaughter of innocents. That alone shows the man has no remorse.

 

[Kutnupe14]

But when our government employees do things wrong on anindividual level, we are tod they shouldn't be held accountable because policy or the courts say it's ok. Granted, we haven't seen or I pray that we never will, the attrocities leveled by the Nazis. The same people that want to hang a 90 year old man are the same that want to shield our government workers from personal accountability in this country. "He was just following departmental policy".

I don't agree with this, do you? If you do, then let's give Grandpa Gestopo a free pass. If you don't, then uhhhhh.... prosecute him right?

This reminds of the KKK members that bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham (1963), which killed 4 girls (11-14). In 2000 the case was solved. Robert Chambliss, Herman Cash, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry had been responsible for the crime. Cash was dead but Blanton and Cherry were arrested and Blanton has since been tried and convicted. People used the same argument about these guys being to old to be held accountable. Thank goodness the courts thought otherwise.

 

[PatriotPride]

AND, according to the article, after the camp was overrun, he VOLUNTARILY chose to join the SS! It was no secret at that time that the SS was involved in the wholesale slaughter of innocents. The man is guilty.

 

[hornadylnl]

I don't agree with this, do you? If you do, then let's give Grandpa Gestopo a free pass. If you don't, then uhhhhh.... prosecute him right?

This reminds of the KKK members that bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham (1963), which killed 4 girls (11-14). In 2000 the case was solved. Robert Chambliss, Herman Cash, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry had been responsible for the crime. Cash was dead but Blanton and Cherry were arrested and Blanton has since been tried and convicted. People used the same argument about these guys being to old to be held accountable. Thank goodness the courts thought otherwise.

Yes, those clan members should still be held to account. You missed my point entirely. Most actions of LE cannot be pinned on them personally. They're exempt from personal law suits. While a PD may pay out a settlement, the officer(s) responsible rarely ever are held to account. Lon Horiuchi is still free, is he not?

 

[mrjarrell]

I don't agree with this, do you? If you do, then let's give Grandpa Gestopo a free pass. If you don't, then uhhhhh.... prosecute him right?

This reminds of the KKK members that bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham (1963), which killed 4 girls (11-14). In 2000 the case was solved. Robert Chambliss, Herman Cash, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry had been responsible for the crime. Cash was dead but Blanton and Cherry were arrested and Blanton has since been tried and convicted. People used the same argument about these guys being to old to be held accountable. Thank goodness the courts thought otherwise.

So, does that same outlook apply to all the cops, who were following orders, in Birmingham and Selma who sicced dogs on marchers, beat them with fists and batons and used fire hoses on them? They clearly violated their civil rights, and yet they've never been called to account for their actions. It still happens today. Routine violations of civil rights and no punishments, (besides the occasional vacation) for the person who perpetrated the crime.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Yes, those clan members should still be held to account. You missed my point entirely. Most actions of LE cannot be pinned on them personally. They're exempt from personal law suits. While a PD may pay out a settlement, the officer(s) responsible rarely ever are held to account. Lon Horiuchi is still free, is he not?

In what world?

 

[Kutnupe14]

So, does that same outlook apply to all the cops, who were following orders, in Birmingham and Selma who sicced dogs on marchers, beat them with fists and batons and used fire hoses on them? They clearly violated their civil rights, and yet they've never been called to account for their actions. It still happens today. Routine violations of civil rights and no punishments, (besides the occasional vacation) for the person who perpetrated the crime.

Yep, I don't waiver on "right" and "wrong"...and being from Alabama, I'm well more intimately aware of this situation than most.

 

[Stschil]

I'm not condoning his death. Assuming it can't be proven that he actually murdered anyone. But he should be held accountable, in the exact same way that his fellow soldiers were.

Yes, you hold conscripted soldiers accountable. Unless this guy was full blown retarded, he knew the difference between right and wrong. Plenty of people under Nazi oppression knew the difference too, and even in the face of death they did the right thing. This guy is still collecting a Wehrmacht pension for crying out loud.

Read up on Trawniki:

Trawniki concentration camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though I don't support this, using your argument, we should them round up every single member of Allied Air Forces that took part in deliberate bombing raids on populace centers that held little to no military value during WWII and try them as well. What is the difference? Germans killed Jewish civilians and the Allies killed German and Japanese civilians.
I was stationed in a city that was literally leveled by American bombers, yet had no significance other than it was close to Stuttgart. There were many like that.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Though I don't support this, using your argument, we should them round up every single member of Allied Air Forces that took part in deliberate bombing raids on populace centers that held little to no military value during WWII and try them as well. What is the difference? Germans killed Jewish civilians and the Allies killed German and Japanese civilians.
I was stationed in a city that was literally leveled by American bombers, yet had no significance other than it was close to Stuttgart. There were many like that.

For what? Military wars are vastly different; especially using the World War II reference. Total war, which WWII certainly was involves the everybody contributing to the war effort. Civilians, the main supporters of a war effort are certainly fair game. They purpose is to destroy their resolve.

I lived in Stuttgart for 4 years (Patch), I'm well aware of the history. They had it coming.

 

[Stschil]

For what? Military wars are vastly different; especially using the World War II reference. Total war, which WWII certainly was involves the everybody contributing to the war effort. Civilians, the main supporters of a war effort are certainly fair game. They purpose is to destroy their resolve.

I lived in Stuttgart for 4 years (Patch), I'm well aware of the history. They had it coming.

So, if Lybia somehow bombed the US, that's excusable? After all, we have it coming.


Dont get me wrong, I know the purpose of those raids. I've said on many occasions that had the Gulf wars been prosected as WWII was, that things over there today would be vastly different.
But this war is over, and was long over before you or I were born. The events of that time constitue many sad pages in the books of world history. Unless this guy has been accused of specific atrocities and it can be proven, let it go, IMO.
If he lied on his immigration application, revoke his citizenship, send him back to Poland.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

Look Im not saying what he did was right, of course its not. But how do you differentiate between killing people? Our own country killed thousands in the nuclear bombings in Japan, many civilians. Would you be cool with Japan wanting everyone involved arrested and hanged?

I understand its a slightly different situation, but the methodoloy proves out. In one instance Germany killed innocent civilians because they were jews, in the other we killed innocent civilians because they were Japanese. We rounded up Japanese living here and put them into internment camps, right here in the USA. Should we get everyone who worked in those camps and arrest them too?

I don't agree with this, do you? If you do, then let's give Grandpa Gestopo a free pass. If you don't, then uhhhhh.... prosecute him right?

This reminds of the KKK members that bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham (1963), which killed 4 girls (11-14). In 2000 the case was solved. Robert Chambliss, Herman Cash, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry had been responsible for the crime. Cash was dead but Blanton and Cherry were arrested and Blanton has since been tried and convicted. People used the same argument about these guys being to old to be held accountable. Thank goodness the courts thought otherwise.

Imo the difference lies in that the KKK members did what they did of their own free will. They choose to do that, they had no army type structure to tell them what to do and when to do it.

 

[jbombelli]

Look Im not saying what he did was right, of course its not. But how do you differentiate between killing people? Our own country killed thousands in the nuclear bombings in Japan, many civilians. Would you be cool with Japan wanting everyone involved arrested and hanged?

I understand its a slightly different situation, but the methodoloy proves out. In one instance Germany killed innocent civilians because they were jews, in the other we killed innocent civilians because they were Japanese. We rounded up Japanese living here and put them into internment camps, right here in the USA. Should we get everyone who worked in those camps and arrest them too?



Imo the difference lies in that the KKK members did what they did of their own free will. They choose to do that, they had no army type structure to tell them what to do and when to do it.

We didn't kill them because they were Japanese. We killed them because we were at war with Japan, and they were supporting the Japanese war effort. We had to break Japan's spirit as a nation and as a people in order to end that war. There is a big difference. One that many people don't seem to understand, and that lack of understanding saddens me greatly. You might have a point if we worked the people in the Japanese internment camps to death, and marched them into gas chambers. But we didn't do that. Did we?


That some people think dropping bombs on cities and killing lots of people with whom we were at war (and make no mistake, we were at war with the entire nation of Germany, and the entire nation of Japan), in order to break their spirit and end that war, and marching millions of people to their deaths simply because they were of a particular faith are morally equivalent actions shocks me to the core.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

They choose to do that, they had no army type structure to tell them what to do and when to do it.

You mean other than the army type structure of the KKK? Or, the fact that the KKK was simply the armed wing of the Democratic Party? The fact that state and local governments supported the KKK?

 

[tenring]

Some seem to selectively forget that the SS hand book stated that if any member were to think that what the SS was doing constituted a criminal act, they could request a transfer out, and it was not to be denied if the requesting individual pursued the matter. Records indicate that many did and were granted a transfer. Transfer to where is a different subject altogether.

 

[Colt556]

There were no innocent SS men. They swore allegiance to Hitler and carried out every order without question. Towards the end of the war many SS Units went out on their own killing sprees and killed everyone in their paths, including other German soldiers. Guards at the concentration camps often were the most viscous troops around. They became callous and killing was nothing to them. They knew exactly what they were doing and enjoyed it. There is no statute of limitations on murder and this man needs to face justice.

 

[misconfig]

What a wild story! Very interesting read, thanks for sharing!

 

[lashicoN]

i guess this would bring up discussion at what point do you go from a soldier following orders manning your post etc...to being a war criminal. Is a German private assigned to a post at Auschwitz anymore bad than one sent to the Russian front?

I'd say when you start firing on unarmed, prisoners. That isn't war, that's just murder.

What purpose does it serve to prosecute this any further.

The scales of justice.

The holocaust couldn't have happened without the help of "security guards" just "doing their job". People should be responsible for their actions and be held accountable for their crimes. As the D.A.R.E. saying goes "Just say no!". Right?

 

[firehawk1]

No, they knew going in what wearing the totenkopf meant.

He took a personal oath to Adolph Hitler and his madness. "I vow to Adolf Hitler imperturbable loyalty."

The SS were told from the beginning that they were joining up to kill the subhumans and to make Germany the dominant power to advance the Master Race. There were no secrets. Everyone knew what wearing a totenkopf meant.

Wrong... HERE is the oath they took. NOTHING about "being told they were joining to kill the subhumans".

I swear to you
Adolf Hitler,
as leader and
chancellor of the nation
loyalty and bravery.
I vow to you
and to the
representatives appointed
by you obedience
unto death,
so help me God.

Only the higher ups IN THE NAZI LEADERSHIP knew about the formation of the Final Solution BEFORE the war started.

If the man can if fact be found guilty of war crimes then it is different story. Making blanket statements about the men who joined and served in the SS is convienient looking back 70 years.

What about the films I've seen of American soldiers shooting German soldiers WHILE they were waving the white flag? Where is the call for THEIR heads on a platter?

 

[techres]

I am always impressed by how giving people are about people who chose evil, in actual atrocities, against actual civilians, and did not find another path.

But who also are ready to hunt down, maim, kill, and destroy imagined Americans of the future who would round up American gun owners and send them to FEMA camps or some other feared future.

If that future occurred, and the good guys won, I would expect no respite, no mercy, and no hiding for the guilty. The only protection they could expect is the due process of law. The same protection and right they afforded no one else.

This guy gets due process to determine guilt. Until proven guilty he is not punished. But if he is found guilty, he pays for the part he played to the fullest.

Age, health, and cost of prosecution are no protection from the rightness of justice.

None of you would have said to let Osama live out his last years left alone just because he was 90 and had a heart condition. And the same would be true for any of his soldiers.

Techres

P.S. Any soldiers who killed prisoners should be brought to justice as well, but do not draw a moral balance between the occasional illegal act and the systematic murder of a civilian population. The only equality is that justice needs be done in both.