muzzleloader upgrade vs 458 socom upper??

[Elflemin]

I'm considering purchasing a new muzzleloader for next year. I have exclusively hunted with blackpowder now since I began hunting about 20 years ago. I have had the same muzzleloader this entire time (t/c thunder hawk). I feel it is time for an upgrade. (Disregarding the ability to obviously use the muzzleloader for both firearms and muzzleloader season.) Anyone have any experience with using 458 SOCOM. I have an AR already so I just need the upper. I'm considering that vs buying a new muzzleloader. This is totally based on want. The current muzzleloader I have is mechanically sound and accurate. Wondering what the experience is with the 458 SOCOM as far as accuracy and effective range.

 

[oldpink]

I'm considering purchasing a new muzzleloader for next year. I have exclusively hunted with blackpowder now since I began hunting about 20 years ago. I have had the same muzzleloader this entire time (t/c thunder hawk). I feel it is time for an upgrade. (Disregarding the ability to obviously use the muzzleloader for both firearms and muzzleloader season.) Anyone have any experience with using 458 SOCOM. I have an AR already so I just need the upper. I'm considering that vs buying a new muzzleloader. This is totally based on want. The current muzzleloader I have is mechanically sound and accurate. Wondering what the experience is with the 458 SOCOM as far as accuracy and effective range.

You're bound to hear from several INGOers who have have been using .458 Socom, but it seems that if you load it with a bullet that will maximize your ability, especially the Hornady Monoflex here Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Bullets :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: .458 45 CAL :: 45 Cal .458 250 GR MonoFlex™ , you should be able to reasonably reach out to 150 yards or a bit more, as long as you have ammo that propels it to its full potential, and as long as you and your gun are up to it.

 

[midget]

I have had a 458 socom build from tromix parts. It was accurate to around 1 moa.
I am actually debating the same thing for next year. I am leaning more towards investing in a smokeless muzzleloader though.

 

[Elflemin]

I have had a 458 socom build from tromix parts. It was accurate to around 1 moa.
I am actually debating the same thing for next year. I am leaning more towards investing in a smokeless muzzleloader though.

1 MOA, nicely done sir! What effective range would say you get out of it? I've read everything from 150-250 yards. Just curious of your personal experience.

 

[DocIndy]

I have taken Deer at 125 yards with my 458 SOCOM with hand loads of 325 gr Hornady FTX bullets on top of a 34.5 gr. H110 charge. My 458 AR upper is so much fun to shoot, I had a savage short action rebarreled to a 458 because I hate loosing brass!

 

[AGarbers]

You may want to check on the 450 Bushmaster. I thought it did well out to 200-250 yards. Franklin Armory sells their uppers at reasonable prices.

 

[midget]

1 MOA, nicely done sir! What effective range would say you get out of it? I've read everything from 150-250 yards. Just curious of your personal experience.

I was shooting subsonic rounds with 500gr bullets. I was able to shoot out to 200 reliably, but the amount of drop was insane. You should be good to go if you use a faster load though.

 

[Elflemin]

I was shooting subsonic rounds with 500gr bullets. I was able to shoot out to 200 reliably, but the amount of drop was insane. You should be good to go if you use a faster load though.

Terrific. Good Lord, hurling 500gr into a deer would be devistating. I was thinking in the 300gr +/-. At least that seems to be more common deer sizes since I've started this research. 200 would be a good distance I would like, 225-250 would just be icing on the cake. The lease we have just got more land added to it which would allow longer shots safely. If the rifles would have been past it would have been spectacular for this land, but oh well.

 

[cncswiss1]

458

I have dropped deer out to 210 with 458 socom.
this year: my son took one at 140, i took one at 120. All DRT
With the Barnes TTSX300 or the 325 hornaday it's perfect for deer
Runs smooth, and is easy to shoot to 200, just sight in at 175 and its within 4" all the way to 200- that's minute of deer to me
All the other big bore uppers used pistol bullets, I wanted better chance of 2 bleeders
https://cncswiss1.smugmug.com/General/i-pP5SFVP

 

[kludge]

Since you have the AR and are considering an upper, also take a look at a .358 WSSM upper. Best performance possible from an AR, IMO.

 

[irishhunter]

They are heavy , ammo is expensive and they cant really do anything a dialed in 44 mag can do. I have had 2 and sold both of them.

I would suggest a older marlin 44 mag as a deer gun IMO

 

[AGarbers]

Since you have the AR and are considering an upper, also take a look at a .358 WSSM upper. Best performance possible from an AR, IMO.

I can't afford the upper. Last time I shopped they were around $1,400. But, if I were so inclined, the .358 WSSM would be a formidable long-range weapon that would be good for most any game in North America. I believe is is equivalent or more powerful than the .35 Whelen, which is based on a necked up 30-06.

 

[Reagan40]

I have an AR and a bolt action in .458 socom. Both are a lot of fun. I would trust my AR out to 200 yards. I reload and use the TTSX bullets. If you reload, it's not too bad as far as expense goes. I've dialed in my load and I've shot a few groups that are sub moa at 100 yards. I used to hunt with a .44 lever action. I enjoy the socom so much, and I am more accurate with it, so I don't see myself changing what I hunt with as long as the laws stay the same.

 

[oldpink]

I can't afford the upper. Last time I shopped they were around $1,400. But, if I were so inclined, the .358 WSSM would be a formidable long-range weapon that would be good for most any game in North America. I believe is is equivalent or more powerful than the .35 Whelen, which is based on a necked up 30-06.

It's really tough to find load data for ,358 WSSM, but a search finally indicates that there is some overlap, indicating that the WSSM can propel a 225 grain bullet get right at 2587 fps out of an an AR-15 platform, presumably with a barrel length no longer than 20".
The .35 Whelen's top loads indicate a top MV with the same weight bullet of right at 2600 fps, but that's out of a 24" barrel, so accounting for the shorter barrel used with the WSSM, the WSSM has identical performance or with a statistically insignificant (perhaps 10 fps) advantage.
The downside for the WSSM is difficulty in finding brass and load data, and factory ammo will be even tougher to locate and probably cost perhaps 2x what you would pay for even the relatively expensive .35 Whelen.
It's still an intriguing cartridge, especially if you reload and have a good supply of brass on hand.

 

[kludge]

I can't afford the upper. Last time I shopped they were around $1,400. But, if I were so inclined, the .358 WSSM would be a formidable long-range weapon that would be good for most any game in North America. I believe is is equivalent or more powerful than the .35 Whelen, which is based on a necked up 30-06.

I wouldn't hesitate to use my 358 WSSM on large game at reasonable distances, but it's no .35 Whelen. It makes equal muzzle energy to the .30-06 though. Now the .358 WSM 1.8" will meet and beat the 35 Whelen.

Yes, the .358 WSSM uppers aren't cheap, but the OP didn't mention a budget.

It's really tough to find load data for ,358 WSSM, but a search finally indicates that there is some overlap, indicating that the WSSM can propel a 225 grain bullet get right at 2587 fps out of an an AR-15 platform, presumably with a barrel length no longer than 20". The .35 Whelen's top loads indicate a top MV with the same weight bullet of right at 2600 fps, but that's out of a 24" barrel, so accounting for the shorter barrel used with the WSSM, the WSSM has identical performance or with a statistically insignificant (perhaps 10 fps) advantage.

That's very optimistic. I get 2525fps with a 200gr bullet from a 22" barrel and I can't quite hit 2400fps with a 225gr bullet. I will try a few faster powders but all indications are that I will top out at ~2600fps with a 200gr bullet. The .358 WSM 1.8" will push a 200gr bullet >2900fps.

The downside for the WSSM is difficulty in finding brass and load data, and factory ammo will be even tougher to locate and probably cost perhaps 2x what you would pay for even the relatively expensive .35 Whelen.
It's still an intriguing cartridge, especially if you reload and have a good supply of brass on hand.

Yes brass is is now extremely hard to come by now that there aren't any more rifles being made, and Winchester doesn't seem to want to support reloaders (I've been on the "notify" lists for a few years now, and not a peep), and probably due to a few people in Indiana buying up every piece of commercial brass in existence. "Factory" ammo is made by hand, one at a time, by small time loaders - hence the expense. But if you got brass before the "shortage" it doesn't cost any more to reload than any other big game rifle cartridge. I luckily got two new bags of brass (100 pieces) from a friend who used to have a .25 WSSM when I started the project. At the rate of 1-2 deer a year, I figure that will last me the rest of my life if I don't wear it out doing "load development."

Speaking of loads... the case capacity (if trimmed to 1.625") is identical to the .358 Winchester, so that data can be safely used (with prudence - start low and work up) for the .358 WSSM. If you trim to standard WSSM length (which is now legal due to the max length being increased to 1.8") then the case will have more water capacity than the .358. Regardless, I already load my bullets long (not to the cannelure) so the difference doesn't really do anything for me.

At any rate, I can't ever get to the max loads in the manuals; I always start seeing pressure signs about 1 grain shy of max. It probably has something to do with the fat powder column burning faster than the narrower powder column of the 358 Win.

In an AR I would keep the 1.625" case length and load to the cannelure - otherwise the rounds won't fit in the magazine. (Not an issue in my WSM bolt action rifle.) This means, however, that in an AR you won't have as much powder space as I do, and you'll have higher pressure, and thus reach max pressure sooner, and not see the same velocity.

Regardless, if you can get a 200gr bullet up to 2400fps, you're 200 fps faster than a .35 Remington, a bit more muzzle energy that the .458 SOCOM 325gr or a bit less than the .450 Bushmaster, and flatter shooting than either (an additional 50 and 30 yards of point blank range, respectively). With my load and 22" barrle, I'm have a bit more ME than the Bushy.

What does that all mean to a deer? Not much.

 

[oldpink]

I wouldn't hesitate to use my 358 WSSM on large game at reasonable distances, but it's no .35 Whelen. It makes equal muzzle energy to the .30-06 though. Now the .358 WSM 1.8" will meet and beat the 35 Whelen.

Yes, the .358 WSSM uppers aren't cheap, but the OP didn't mention a budget.

[...abbreviated for brevity...]
What does that all mean to a deer? Not much.

Excellent post, packed with good info.
That deserves a digital attaboy.

 

[Mustang1911]

OP, I've been in the same boat here recently. I grew up using black power muzzle loaders and right now I'm using a Savage smokeless power muzzle loader. Nothing wrong with the setup I have now, but I've been wanting to try something new. I've always sighted in at 100 yards and haven't ever taken a deer further away than that, usually about 50-75 yards on average. Smaller caliber higher velocity rounds (358 Hoosier, WSSM, etc) wouldn't do me any good at the ranges I'm usually shooting at. Plus I shoot ARs more frequently than a bolt action style rifle so it would be nice to have a 458 AR platform to hut with.

Biggest thing that has kept me from building a 458 AR upper is ammo cost and the fact that I don't "need" it just want to play with it. I don't reload yet, and loaded 458 ammo is expensive. But having the option of shooting 500 grain subsonic loads with a suppressor sure would be fun and quiet. If you need somebody to twist your arm to push you over the edge to buy one I'll be more than happy to be that bad influence on you.

If you don't reload, 450 Bushmaster might be a good option if ammo prices are a concern. 450B ammo is cheaper that 458 but its also shooting .452 cal bullets which are usually designed for pistols versus .458 cal rifle bullets. And if you do reload, there is a lot more options for .458 cal bullets in a wide variety of weights. 450B also takes specific mags versus 458S uses normal 556 AR mags which you probably already have on hand. Other than just the cost of buying the gun/parts/upper and ammo, I can't think of a reason to say to not buy it. If you're going to buy something new anyway, might as well buy something different than what you already have (the muzzle loader) since you can keep the muzzle loader for ML season and have the 458 for firearms and bonus antler-less season.

 

[Elflemin]

I have dropped deer out to 210 with 458 socom.
this year: my son took one at 140, i took one at 120. All DRT
With the Barnes TTSX300 or the 325 hornaday it's perfect for deer
Runs smooth, and is easy to shoot to 200, just sight in at 175 and its within 4" all the way to 200- that's minute of deer to me
All the other big bore uppers used pistol bullets, I wanted better chance of 2 bleeders
https://cncswiss1.smugmug.com/General/i-pP5SFVP

Thanks,that is essentially the info I was looking for. Something reliable in the 200 range. nice photos btw too.

 

[kludge]

If you don't reload, 450 Bushmaster might be a good option if ammo prices are a concern. 450B ammo is cheaper that 458 but its also shooting .452 cal bullets which are usually designed for pistols versus .458 cal rifle bullets. And if you do reload, there is a lot more options for .458 cal bullets in a wide variety of weights.

There are a couple dedicated bullets available for the Bushy, however the very excellent Hornady XTP-MAG (emphasize the MAG) pistol bullets made for the .454 Casull and 460 S&W Magnum do nicely and are quite inexpensive - comparatively speaking - at 240gr and 300gr. Also, there are a couple pointy Barnes bullets that will do very nicely for the .450B