Modifications to carry weapon

[turnandshoot4]

I agree they cannot pick ANY juror. They can, however, deny you from being a juror because you have experience with a situation. I was removed from a jury because I had medical experience and the lawyer was going to use medical testimony. I would have been a BETTER juror than anyone else, but I was chosen to leave. The same can happen with 2A rights. Does anyone here have guns? Yep. Thank you, you are dismissed. I think that is how that would go.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Great input everyone. I think I might go with a bone stock carry weapon and practice with that.

 

[Zephri]

Sounds like a sound choice, given the legal hassle it might save you.

 

[melensdad]

I was removed from a jury because I had medical experience and the lawyer was going to use medical testimony. I would have been a BETTER juror than anyone else, but I was chosen to leave. The same can happen with 2A rights.

That EXACT thing happened to me last year. It was not a self-defense trial, it was a drug deal gone worse and there was gunplay. The defendants attorney did not want anyone familiar with guns on the jury, I was dismissed in the very first round of questioning.

I know this is a little off topic, but it also has to do with the 'appearance' of the gun.

Would it negatively effect the jury's opinion of you if you used 'Law Enforcement Use Only' labeled ammo? Both the Federal HST and Federal 00 Buck that I just bought both come labeled as LE Only, Although it is just a Federal company policy and not a law.

Any lawyer worth a damn is going to make an issue out of anything.

• So he will go after your mental state (did you just leave the bar? did you recently have a fight with your girlfriend/wife? did a business deal go sour and were you upset? did you lose your job?)
• They will go after your motive, and while your lawyer will say "he was afraid for his life this was pure self defense" you can bet the other lawyer will disagree.
• So do you have something in your past (where he can play the "race card" or are if you physically larger than the guy you shot they why not just subdue him? or if he didn't have a gun and 'only' had knife then why did you have to shoot?)
• And you can also absolutely bet that they will go after the ammunition and the gun in any way they can figure out.

Now all that said, I think there are 'safety enhancements' that will probably be very defendable and those would include night sights, smoothing of a rough action, or replacing a Glock's trigger with a "New York" HEAVY trigger. But lighten it, use "cop" ammo, engrave "I dispense Justice" on the barrel of your gun, put on "Grim Reaper" grips, or in any way make the gun look 'evil' then I think you better have a damn good lawyer.


By the way, I made a comment earlier that needs to be clarified.

I think it was clear within context, but I think it could be taken out of context. I wrote that we should not carry what we train with, but that was referring to competition pistols, and the training I was referring to was competition training for competitive shooting events. I believe you should train with your "carry gun" and need to be proficient with your "carry gun" but very few competition shooters will ever carry their competition guns because those are hybrid ultra tuned pistols that are typically not suitable for carry. If anyone misunderstood that point I hope this clarifies it.​

 

[sparkyfender]

I leave my guns pretty well stock.

I might change stock panels or something, maybe add night sights, but that is about it.

Partly because I don't want a too "conspicous" carry gun that might get a close lookover if ever deployed in self-defense, and partly because I enjoy the clean looks of a simpler pistol.

Then again, you have something like the GLOCK, which looks black and dangerous fresh from its box, is much maligned by the media and some law enforcement spokespeople, and has that evil, guttural Teutonic name.

That said, I still carry GLOCKS at times.

I just think almost ANYTHING is possible in a courtroom, even if the "anything" is short lived..................

 

[bigcraig]

A good shoot is a good shoot, but if you find yourself in a position that you need legal assistance, due to a self defense shooting, I suggest you know in advance a lawyer that is experienced in the subject.

In Indiana we are very fortunate to have a few lawyers that are "gun guys", hell one of which has written a couple of books on Indiana gun laws. (Bryan Ciyou)

Gentlemen, and ladies, if you carry a gun you SHOULD have your lawyer of choice buisiness card in your wallet, treat that card like a spare magazine for your weapon.

 

[rhino]

. . . but very few competition shooters will ever carry their competition guns because those are hybrid ultra tuned pistols that are typically not suitable for carry.

This is untrue, at least in Indiana. In USPSA, the most popular division in club matches is Production. Those are all carry guns. In IDPA, Stock Service Pistol is also very popular, and those are all carry guns. There is another large percentage in both games that shoot the same 1911s they carry.

 

[stillwaters]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the book In the Gravest Extreme:The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection By Massad Ayoob of Lethal Force Institute. It should be required reading before application for a carry permit. Unless you want to spend unnecessary time in jail and astronomical legal fees, I highly, highly sugggest plunking down $20 to (possibly) save yourself unmitigated grief!

 

[melensdad]

This is untrue, at least in Indiana. In USPSA, the most popular division in club matches is Production. Those are all carry guns. In IDPA, Stock Service Pistol is also very popular, and those are all carry guns. There is another large percentage in both games that shoot the same 1911s they carry.

In the real scheme of things only a very very small % of people who carry are active competitors. Of the active competitors there is a fair percentage that shoot stock pistols, but most people who carry are carrying compact pistols and while their competition gun may be a stock pistol it may not be their competition gun. You are splitting hairs.

 

[abnk]

A good shoot is a good shoot, but if you find yourself in a position that you need legal assistance, due to a self defense shooting, I suggest you know in advance a lawyer that is experienced in the subject.

In Indiana we are very fortunate to have a few lawyers that are "gun guys", hell one of which has written a couple of books on Indiana gun laws. (Bryan Ciyou)

Gentlemen, and ladies, if you carry a gun you SHOULD have your lawyer of choice buisiness card in your wallet, treat that card like a spare magazine for your weapon.

Excellent advice! A good shoot is a good shoot. If I believe that a modification will enhance my chances to stop the threat and save the lives of my loved ones, I will make it. Simple as that.

My Glock trigger is stock; not because of legal ramifications, but because it works well enough for me. The only modification is a front night sight.

In a recent class, one of the fellow shooters, a lawyer and also a member of this board, mentioned a 3.5 disconnector he has in his carry Glock. I never thought that it would be an issue in a good shoot, but since this issue is always discussed, I asked him what he thought of it. My belief was confirmed by his answer, "A good shoot is a good shoot." 'Nuff said.

 

[abnk]

I agree that a lawyer can spin anything, there was a very good article in American Handgunner's personal defense 2008 annual called "After the shooting stops (A prosecutor's view of what to expect)" that had some very good perspectives on carrying. One thing the author reiterated several times was that you need to be able to explain to a jury that is probably not your peer group why you chose the weapon you carry.

Another point the article brought up was that your gun would obviously be confiscated, and most likely would not be returned in the same condition. So you might now want to have your best gun be the gun you end up having to shoot someone with. Probably not a huge concern with your 2 glocks, but someone would probably not want to carry a "$3,000 ivory stocked .45"

That would probably be the very, very least of my concerns. My family is worth a whole lot more than a few thousand bucks. I guess lightning could strike twice in the same place, but I will worry about the first time first.

 

[kludge]

Smooth up the trigger? yes.
Lighten the pull? no.
Night sights/lasers? Yes.
Rail monted flashlight? Maybe not; convince me this is a good idea - pointing a loaded gun at an object you have not yet positively identified, maybe if you first identify the object with a flashlight in your other hand that doesn't have a loaded gun attached to it.
Grips that fit the shooter? yes, this goes to being able to safely handle and shoot the gun
Sending a Ruger DA back to the factory to get a DAO bobbed hammer installed? yes.
Engraving "Death Wish II" "Make My Day" "Molon Labe" "Instructions: Shoot to Slide Lock" on the slide? not a chance.

 

[rhino]

Excellent advice! A good shoot is a good shoot. If I believe that a modification will enhance my chances to stop the threat and save the lives of my loved ones, I will make it. Simple as that.

And that is, as they say, the bottom line.

It's interesting how these topics get started and how they progress. Often it's more about someone who wants to validate their own choices and perhaps impugn the choices of others rather than an exchange of ideas and information.

 

[younggun21]

"A good shoot is a good shoot." 'Nuff said.

I agree. I can see how an attorney would make the type of gun used or the modifications an issue, but that is assuming you are even in court! If the shoot is good and there is no question and you have a good lawyer working for you, any charges should be dropped if even filed.

In regards to civil cases. This is where I really think someone could get burned for the details of their training and gun mods. I am currently in a Business Law class, that is really a class on civil law. I have learned a lot about how to sue the pants off of anybody for anything I have also seen some crazy cases and explanation of events in case write ups.

+1 for having a good attorney on your side (I'm in search of one while I wait on my permit)

-K

 

[Soundslikejosh]

Smooth up the trigger? yes.

Rail monted flashlight? Maybe not; convince me this is a good idea - pointing a loaded gun at an object you have not yet positively identified, maybe if you first identify the object with a flashlight in your other hand that doesn't have a loaded gun attached to it.

No offense kludge, but isnt that why you keep your finger off the trigger? I know the practice is that you do not point a gun at anything you dont want to destroy, but at a certain point this has to be modified for the situation. Agreed, no one would want to shine their firearm light and find their kid going to use the bathroom. But, I still think the benefit of a weapon light is greater than the responsibility to not point. I don't mean to trivialize the issue at all, but pointing is different than shooting. Of course some will say that its not a big deal to just have a handheld light next to the gun, and do as kludge recommends- but to me it seems unnecessarily cumbersome. Any thoughts anyone?

 

[melensdad]

I would agree that there is nothing wrong with a light mounted on the handgun. It provides a tactical advantage, it alone can persuade a bad guy that he should stand down, so it could reasonably be considered a safety device.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

Innovation....

 

[Disposable Heart]

Does anyone care to cite a trial where modifications or reloading was an issue brought up? I group this fear of lawyers in with fearmongering perpetrated by (yes!) the gun industry, or those associated with it (or those who would like to be associated with it). I am not anti-gun, but I despise going to gunshows and having someone try to sell me gold, in case the SHTF. One, gold is at a terrible trade level now. Two I cannot eat gold (I generally buy a carton of smokes when things get a little weird outside for trading, I dont smoke).

So what if I take a modified handgun and shoot a jerk inside my home with a handloaded round. Will it come up in court? If I go to the stand and make an a$$ out of myself, blaring Molon Labe or something, then yeah, they will string me up. Just get up there, "no sir, I shot him as I thought him a threat", that should be it if YOUR lawyer is worth a hoot. Depend on your lawyer, not what the other one will "probably" do. If the other guys brings up the issue of modification "I dont know how this relates to the case". The jury is only considering one thing: what was that other guy doing in your home or carjacking you? Not: What type of rounds was he using? Heck, even with factory loaded ammunition they can still make you out to be a Rambo type. "Well he was using ammunition the police use, so he thinks he's a cop". Fearmongering and worrying until a fruitless death. My 2cents (rant off, darn switch wont stay off! )

 

[SilentWarrior1]

I personally believe that any modifications that I make to my carry weapon are my business and my business alone. It shouldn't make a difference what kind of pistol I choose to carry. It's not going to jump up and shoot someone itself. The firearm is an inanimate object. I have to pick it up, and consiously use it before it does anything.

Upgraded triggers, heavier recoil springs, Night sights, Uber tacticool rosewood grips... None of that matters, in the grand scheme of things.

The fact that matters is that I am able to neutralize a threat that presents itself and I'm able to keep myself and family safe.

People fear what they do not understand...

 

[ryanmercer]

Now let me say that I have modified several of my carry weapons, but the modifications are limited to cosmetics. I may change the colors, install custom grips, but I don't lighten the triggers, so there are some custom touches that I think will pass muster in court without any issues.

But I think even changing the grip panels can get you in trouble if you choose the wrong grip design. For example, if you put on grip panels that show an image of Satan, the Grim Reaper or perhaps the Punisher Skull then I think a lawyer will make a big deal about the fact that you were just itching to kill someone. I'll put on polymer ivory, or engraved high grade wood, or birdseye maple or something that is far less threatening. Somehow I think it would be harder for a lawyer to make an issue out of a beautiful piece of wood than out of a satanic or violent looking image. JMHO

Seriously, which grip does your lawyer want you to have on your gun if he has to defend you in court?

I"m going to get my carry weapon painted pink...

"as you can see the accused shot the deceased with a flamingo pink firearm" hahahaha