Marion County: SWAT Team in action - Video

[MilitaryArms]

Believe it or not, demonstrating that was my intention when I posted in this thread.

You bastard, you tricked me!

 

[esrice]

Group hug.

 

[Coach]

Really broad brush there Coach. Since you are so much better than the cops don't call them like you say. Just have them do the report and then they can learn from you since you will be able to handle any situation perfectly.

Sorry if the brush stroke was too broad. I know there are a lot of good police officiers out there. I can miss just like anyone else, but I don't think I would hit the hood of my own car.

I plan to be independent. My families is safety is my responsiblity and I plan to be ready and not depend on anyone else. I have several personal experiences in this county, with regards to the police. Non of them are very favorable. I was a reserve in this county with a department and have seen some very lamentable things first hand. Cowards should not be tolerated in any part of our society, and they should not wear a badge. If they are scared of the dark go into another line of work. Perhaps I have been over stating things here. Because of things I have seen first hand.

I am thnakful for the good men and women in law enforcement. But they are the minority for what I have seen.

I understand that the high stress situations making markmanship 1000% more difficult. But I can name a handful of cops that I have seen on the square range have to reshoot the qualification over and over to be qualified. I have little confidence in calling those officers for help.

Sorry to offend anyone in Law Enforcement whose image is tarnished by these type of schmucks. I will try to be more conservative with my comments in the future.

 

[rhino]

Coach, you're getting soft on us.

 

[bigcraig]

Coach, you're getting soft on us.

Say it ain't so!

 

[fastheads]

That looks like a wild west shootout. Lucky someone wasn't killed.

 

[MilitaryArms]

That looks like a wild west shootout. Lucky someone wasn't killed.

I suspect the guy driving the truck was killed. If he wasn't, he's one lucky SOB! The camera man and the cops shooting at each other in a crossfire certainly are very lucky that no good guys were killed.

 

[phylodog]

Actually he only got hit in the shoulder. Glass does very strange things to bullets. Many of the hits to the vehicle were placed where you would expect them to be but deflection caused the bullets to stray off target.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Actually he only got hit in the shoulder. Glass does very strange things to bullets. Many of the hits to the vehicle were placed where you would expect them to be but deflection caused the bullets to stray off target.

Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, I've done some testing shooting through car windows at targets. I know first hand how it can cause crazy flight characteristics.

I just watched the video again and I can see what happened now. You can see most of the officers were shooting pretty much at the center of the side window and front window. It looks like the perp got down low as he moved forward, I hadn't noticed that before. It looks as though most of the shots went over him. That dumb SOB is lucky to be alive... well, as luck an any prison inmate can be.

 

[Coach]

Competition as training tool

These are three posts from the Brian Enos Forum. As I read them I thought about this post on this website. These are posts that do two things. Talk about Law Enforcement Qualification and the value that competition may bring to the real world of LEO's.


"I'm a new USPSA shooter. I've only shot in 5 local club matches, and a Steel Challange. I'm also a 30 year law enforcement veteran. I've read several thread postings on various forums and have spoke to a few fellow USPSA shooters who believe that USPSA, IDPA, Glock Sport Shooters ect. are "just games" and have no practical use as good tactical or defensive training.
My department holds weapon qualification once a year. We shoot 50 rounds starting out at the 7 yard line and moving out to 25 yards. We only do 2 slow and easy mandatory reloads and our target kill zone is 8.5"x14".
If you make most of your hits at the 7 and 14 yard lines, you can totally blow your shots at the 25 yard line and still qualify to carry your weapon. Most of the guys I work with only fire their duty and off duty weapons once a year. Before joining USPSA, I only shot a few times a year myself.

My first USPSA match as an onserver was a bit of an eye opener for me. I decided at my current skill level I would never want to engage even a Class C ranked shooter in a real life tactical situation.

Compared to my once a year department qualification, I believe USPSA shooting is providing me with some good practical defensive and offensive shooting skills. I'm engaging multiple targets while moving, speed reloading and having to plan which target to engage at which time. In my opinion, as an LEO, the "gun games" are providing me with the training I would probably never get any other way. As an added plus, the gun games are a real blast.

***********************************************************************************

As a fellow LEO and firearms instructor I know exactly what you're talking about. When people ask me I usually tell them that USPSA shooting is possibly the best training there is for gun handling and fast accuracy skills you can find. Sure, in a swat situation you'll slice the pie around a corner etc, but training on that stuff ("tactics") doesn't teach you to put fast, accurate hits on target or to make really hard shots under pressure and/or while moving, leaning, off balance etc. Take the positives of gun handling skills, speed and accuracy under pressure and then combine those with the tactical stuff and you have the best of both worlds. The vast majority of LEO shootings are reactive in nature...guy jumps out of his car and points a gun at you, or you come around a corner and find a bad guy with a knife waiting for you....that's when being able to get your gun out quickly and put accurate rounds on target FAST means everything...and that's the core of what USPSA teaches you. It just happens to also be a lot of fun
***********************************************************************************
Gotta disagree with you Mark and agree with the others and especially CDRODA396, given his experience. I can tell you while "tactics" is something that is a completely different skill set, my experience in USPSA/IPSC/3-Gun is directly responsible for keeping me alive on 2 overseas deployments."

Rich

 

[mrw]

Good post Coach. You should post that in the competitions thread in the shooting sports forum.

 

[40calPUNISHER]

M16's have absolutely no useful purpose on a police force (select fire). There aren't very many safe situations I can think of where unaimed automatic fire would be useful or safe in a urban setting. MP5's in well trained hands, I'm not opposed to either.

I'm no police officer but I'm pretty sure they don't train to shooting from the hip...asinine!
The only "safe situation" that your going to be in while discharging a firearm is going to be at the range, and even then thats not completely safe.

This little guy is digging himself a deeper hole...

 

[MilitaryArms]

I'm no police officer but I'm pretty sure they don't train to shooting from the hip...asinine!
The only "safe situation" that your going to be in while discharging a firearm is going to be at the range, and even then thats not completely safe.

This little guy is digging himself a deeper hole...

So you think full-auto 5.56 fire by patrol officers in urban area's is as safe as aimed single shots?

 

[40calPUNISHER]

Other than in the movies, MOST of the time you'll be shooting short CONTROLLED bursts. Of course its not as safe. When the bg's are coming with full auto, its nice to not be outgunned. And again, they are not being trained to shot from the hip or pray and spray. The police have to be ready for anything and guess what, the guns can be fired in semi-auto... There's always going to be accident whether its from a M16, AR15, shotgun or pistol.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Other than in the movies, MOST of the time you'll be shooting short CONTROLLED bursts. Of course its not as safe. When the bg's are coming with full auto, its nice to not be outgunned. And again, they are not being trained to shot from the hip or pray and spray. The police have to be ready for anything and guess what, the guns can be fired in semi-auto... There's always going to be accident whether its from a M16, AR15, shotgun or pistol.

1) It sounds to me like you've spent far more time watching movies than spending any trigger time behind a M16, airsoft doesn't count.
2) In the ensuing investigations post officer involved shootings they usually discover the officer can't recall the exact number of rounds fired. The officer will say he fired 3-4 rounds when in reality he emptied his magazine. When bullets start flying "controlled bursts" go out the window with all but the most seasoned combat vets or highly trained SWAT officers.
3) Most officers barely qualify with their duty sidearm. You think the average patrol officer is going to be highly trained in the use of full-auto fire?
4) Full-auto fire in military settings is used on area targets and as suppressive fire. Even hardcore grunts know that if you want to end a fight by killing the "BG", it's aimed deliberate fire you need. If you're suggesting officers should use military suppressive fire tactics in urban settings, this conversation is over because... well, I don't waste my time trying to explain the obvious to people who refuse to listen.
5) No one said anything about "shooting from the hip". If you think putting a M16 in your shoulder and flipping the switch to FA yields tight little groups at 50 yards, well... you have little or no experience with the M16.
6) You nonchalantly say "there's always going to be accidents" as if that's an excuse to send fully operational M16's out on the street in untrained hands. Well Hell, why stop with M16's? Let's give them M240's, M249's, M79's to go with the M16's and even AT4's for those hard to breech barricades.
7) There's a reason most departments disable the full-auto feature on government M16's... can you guess why?

 

[40calPUNISHER]

1) It sounds to me like you've spent far more time watching movies than spending any trigger time behind a M16, airsoft doesn't count.
2) In the ensuing investigations post officer involved shootings they usually discover the officer can't recall the exact number of rounds fired. The officer will say he fired 3-4 rounds when in reality he emptied his magazine. When bullets start flying "controlled bursts" go out the window with all but the most seasoned combat vets or highly trained SWAT officers.
3) Most officers barely qualify with their duty sidearm. You think the average patrol officer is going to be highly trained in the use of full-auto fire?
4) Full-auto fire in military settings is used on area targets and as suppressive fire. Even hardcore grunts know that if you want to end a fight by killing the "BG", it's aimed deliberate fire you need. If you're suggesting officers should use military suppressive fire tactics in urban settings, this conversation is over because... well, I don't waste my time trying to explain the obvious to people who refuse to listen.
5) No one said anything about "shooting from the hip". If you think putting a M16 in your shoulder and flipping the switch to FA yields tight little groups at 50 yards, well... you have little or no experience with the M16.
6) You nonchalantly say "there's always going to be accidents" as if that's an excuse to send fully operational M16's out on the street in untrained hands. Well Hell, why stop with M16's? Let's give them M240's, M249's, M79's to go with the M16's and even AT4's for those hard to breech barricades.
7) There's a reason most departments disable the full-auto feature on government M16's... can you guess why?

Well I can agree with you that I'm not going to waste my time trying to argue my point to someone who wont listen. I've had a little trigger time with a couple different M16 platforms and know that your not going to be taking 50 yards shots in burst or wide open. With the lack of common sence you are showing with your scenario, you can come up with reasons why they shouldnt have full-auto. In an urban environment, your not going to flip the switch to FA and take that 50 yard shot... get real. So yes you're right, you'd have to be a dumb ass to try it. Lets change that to something more realistic. Umm, how bout a couple yards. Now those 2 - 3 round burst are making better groups.

"Most officers barely qualify with their duty sidearm." My question to you is, where's your evidence? Thats what I thought...

"send fully operational M16's out on the street in untrained hands" Again, evidence? And yes, they do get training.

The big picture here is Police are trained to think on their feet and do what it takes to get the job done. You are obviously not giving them enough credit for what they do and think that every officer out there who is risking his and her life everyday (to keep you safe)is poorly trained, cant make smart split second decisions and should be outgunned by the BGs... And one last thing, why give them M79's when they can just stick M203's on their M16's? That would just make it easier on their simple minded untrained asses.

THE END

Im done

 

[VUPDblue]

This pissing match should have ended long ago. Full-Auto, I think you are trying to stir the pot more than argue a point. This is evidenced by you referring to 40cal's trigger time as being behind AirSoft arms, and speaking to him like a child. I don't usually get involved in these things but, damn, build a bridge and get over it already! Just agree to disagree!

 

[MilitaryArms]

"Most officers barely qualify with their duty sidearm." My question to you is, where's your evidence? Thats what I thought...

Oh, I don't know... maybe because I've been present at many qualifications and for more than one department. Most gun-nut officers will also admit that many non-gun enthusiasts on their department are horrible shots... and many only fire their weapons when it's mandated they do so.

That's why we have SWAT. They are trained. You don't need to issue a sniper rifle to every patrol officer and you don't need to arm every patrol officer with infantry hardware.

"send fully operational M16's out on the street in untrained hands" Again, evidence? And yes, they do get training.

Yes, they do. They get a single rifle course and some have to qualify with it every year. WOW. You'll give someone a single course in the use of a full-auto M16 and turn them loose on the streets with it? I wouldn't turn a Marine loose on Iraq with a single rifle course under his belt, why the Hell would a turn a patrol officer loose on the city streets with one? Thank God most departments don't.

You are obviously not giving them enough credit for what they do and think that every officer out there who is risking his and her life everyday (to keep you safe)is poorly trained, cant make smart split second decisions and should be outgunned by the BGs...

I'm sorry, where did I say anything about "credit"? I have the utmost respect for all law enforcement.

An officer armed with an AR15 isn't "out gunned". How many gun battles took place in Indiana last year where police were "out gunned" by a "BG" armed with a machinegun and police weren't able to bring resolution to the situation?

This pissing match should have ended long ago. Full-Auto, I think you are trying to stir the pot more than argue a point. This is evidenced by you referring to 40cal's trigger time as being behind AirSoft arms, and speaking to him like a child. I don't usually get involved in these things but, damn, build a bridge and get over it already! Just agree to disagree!

Oh yes, I'm stirring the pot.

He takes his first shot calling me "little guy". I don't respond in kind. He takes his second shot implying I get my experience from movies, and you think I'm stirring the pot?

I think you need to take a second look.

 

[Lars]

At this point..... If the pissing match isn't over, the thread will be closed, and most of the posts in it will be going away.

 

[VUPDblue]

I think you both need to cool it, and this thread needs to be closed...FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!