Man seen with a hose nozzle, shot without warning by police

[dross]

To have cops, you must give them the benefit of the doubt. It's a simple as that. They are forced to make difficult judgments in split seconds, sometimes when their lives or another's is on the line.

They got a man with gun call. They arrived. If what they say is true, and absent contrary evidence, we must accept their version, the guy pointed a gun shaped object at them, using a twohanded grip commone for usage with a firearm, not common with a garden hose.

Why didn't they say drop the gun before the backup arrived? Because backup hadn't arrived. Then, if the guy pointed the gun shaped object, there was no time to say drop the gun. Which of you would tell someone to drop it before shooting them if you honestly thought they were about to shoot you?

Unless I hear different evidence, this is a tragedy for sure, but not one that is the cops' fault.

The reason I am so hard on punishing cops when they are actually caught in the wrong, and punishing severely those misguided cops who value hiding the wrongdoing of their brothers in blue over the truth and protecting the public from THEM, is because we must give the cops the benefit of the doubt in these kinds of shootings. Its because we give them the benefit of the doubt that we must be so hard on them when they go wrong.

To constantly attack their wrongdoing, however, and then also refuse to allow them the leeway their job requires, even when there is no evidence they've done anything wrong, does them a disservice, IMO, and in some cases, given some of the other opinions I've read here about citizen self defense, is hypocritical.

Finally, that doesn't change my beleif that the law would come down like a ton of bricks on a citizen who shot someone who was doing no more than pointing a garden hose attachment at them. That doesn't take away from what these officers did, it points to a problem with how the law treats armed citizens.

 

[rambone]

We could ignore all MWAG calls as a matter of policy and I wouldn't bat an eye. The anti-weapon mentality would begin to lighten up a little bit. Cops would be put in less compromising positions over needless situations. Less innocent blood would be spilled.

There you have it. Ignore MWAG calls, restore the constitution. Seriously. MWAG isn't even a crime in most of the country. Why do you respond to these calls? Why?? Anyone accept my challenge?

 

[Arthur Dent]

That's the thing. The dead guy is in no position to give his side of the story. So all we have to go on is the story of the guys who just killed a man and are in self-preservation mode.

 

[public servant]

The article says the cop could "allegedly" hear the guy playing with "gun" and it made realistic sounds. If their story is even true... that means they were definitely within earshot of the guy, and chose not to communicate. They just popped out from behind a corner and bang... Dead guy minding his own business.

One way or the other, I wish that contact would have been made before sneaking up on him. We've got megaphones, telephones, and loud voices. Why not use them instead of entering private property looking for that scary MWAG?

Don't I have a right to be an MWAG? Why do we even respond to these idiotic calls?

Scenario for you. Police are called to the scene of a man with a gun at a home he doesn't belong.

Upon their arrival they do indeed witness an intoxicated individual with an item that does indeed appear to be a gun. Rather than confront the individual, they establish a perimeter and wait.

As they wait the individual then enters the home he was at...which is not his home and murders the occupants...a mother and two children. Had they confronted the individual these three innocent people would still be alive.

Now...let's say this is your home. And it's your wife and two kids dead inside at the hands of a man the police allowed to enter it because they waited to confront him. I'm sure now the police would be "a bunch of chicken **** mother ****ers" that "should have done their damn job and stopped this bastard".

Pretty easy to armchair, isn't it? Damned if you do...damned if you don't.

My sympathy to the family of the individual shot by the police. I hope God gives then the strength to deal with this tragedy. My prayers to the officers and their families that they find strength to face many difficult days ahead. And finally...I hope the truths involved in this tragedy comes out...all of it.

To the man with the item that appeared to be a gun... Darwin thinned the herd by one.

Moral of the story? Keep your stupid, drunken ass at home and don't point **** you're pretending to be a gun at the police. Doing so may be hazardous to your health.

**Footnote. I wasn't there when this incident played out. That does not stop me, like others, from forming a conclusion given the accounts of the situation. You may or may not agree with my conclusion.

 

[rambone]

Scenario for you. Police are called to the scene of a man with a gun at a home he doesn't belong.

Upon their arrival they do indeed witness an intoxicated individual with an item that does indeed appear to be a gun. Rather than confront the individual, they establish a perimeter and wait.

As they wait the individual then enters the home he was at...which is not his home and murders the occupants...a mother and two children. Had they confronted the individual these three innocent people would still be alive.

Now...let's say this is your home. And it's your wife and two kids dead inside at the hands of a man the police allowed to enter it because they waited to confront him. I'm sure now the police would be "a bunch of chicken **** mother ****ers" that "should have done their damn job and stopped this bastard".

Pretty easy to armchair, isn't it? Damned if you do...damned if you don't.

My sympathy to the family of the individual shot by the police. I hope God gives then the strength to deal with this tragedy. My prayers to the officers and their families that they find strength to face many difficult days ahead. And finally...I hope the truths involved in this tragedy comes out...all of it.

To the man with the item that appeared to be a gun... Darwin thinned the herd by one.

Moral of the story? Keep your stupid, drunken ass at home and don't point **** you're pretending to be a gun at the police. Doing so may be hazardous to your health.

**Footnote. I wasn't there when this incident played out. That does not stop me, like others, from forming a conclusion given the accounts of the situation. You may or may not agree with my conclusion.

I think that is precisely the reason people are always quoting the famous "police have no duty to protect you" case. They can only do what they can. We cannot dabble in pre-crime; trying to stop criminals by suppressing harmless behavior. You are big on personal responsibility, as am I. In your scenario the blood would be on one person's hands, the bad guy who pulled the trigger. If police try to over-protect people from what may-or-may-not happen, in the midst of foggy details, terrible things like can result. I think a phone call to the house would have been appropriate, if not by the police then by the neighbor. There was no establishment that anyone was in trouble.

I really truly think dispatchers who take MWAG calls should be respond "Well does it look like he is committing a crime?" If not, move on to the next caller. I can report that I saw a guy eating a grilled cheese sandwich - so far that remains legal so there should be no reason to respond to a call like that.

I'm willing to bend on this particular MWAG call because of the perceived trespassing. The average MWAG call on a OC'er in Indiana makes me cringe though.

And I am willing to concede that if the dead guy really truly pointed the thing at the cops exactly like he said, then its a "not guilty" after the trial. However, it is not evident that the man even knew the police were on the scene, who they were, if he raised his arms at all, or if he was still holding it by the time they arrived. All that from lack of communication. The whole thing is really heartbreaking.

 

[jeremy]

Hey Veterans.

What would happen to a Soldier, Sailor, Marine, or Airman that done something similar to what these LEOs done?!

 

[Liberty Sanders]

If that is the case, then how is a police shooting ever judged against a standard beyond the word of the LEO involved?

And how can LE expect the public to have any faith in their collective integrity if there is no independent process to be followed that eliminates the reliance on the officer's personal integrity?

It just doesn't pass the smell test for practical implications to give LEO carte blanche to make decisions of that nature without some sort of policy in place. Not that I'm saying you're wrong. I just find it hard to believe that LE agencies haven't figured this one out yet.

There is only one "policy." If you have reason to be in fear of your life or of great bodily harm, you may use whatever degree of force is necessary to neutralize the threat.

There is no SOP mandating that you verbally challenge a suspect, or that you try to shoot the gun out of his hand, or any of the other asinine crap that armchair experts come up with after a situation like this occurs.

This guy was responsible for his own death through an act that was undeniably, grotesquely and terminally STUPID! He pointed something, in a combat stance, that looked exactly like a gun at a group of guys that he KNEW would shoot him to death for it!

I've been plenty vocal in these forums condemning my brother LEO's for acts that are either unconstitutional or stupid. This isn't one of those times.

The dead man was an idiot who got exactly what he deserved. This is Darwinism at its best.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

jeremy, do you mean by the UCMJ or by . . . extrajudiciary rules? Sorry, not tracking.

The incident is beyond tragic. I belive this manifests the hyperaggression that police are being taught. This is a training problem.

Guy sitting on the stairs with a possible gun?

Even if this is reasonable suspicion of any crime, assume that it is, if you have to go check it out, why not talk to him? "Hey, buddy, police. Everything O.K.?" Why do we have to run toward the problem with guns drawn (and, yes, they are trained to point their guns at people who they think are armed, can we just admit this now)? Pull up, order Chinese food, and get a bullhorn or just cup your hands and yell.

Talk is cheap; one round can be very expensive. The problem is that they are being taught to be "enforcers" (he is screwing with me and my turf) and the militree influence of current police training is spilling over into areas where it has no business being.

I'm all for the police defending themselves, but only if they do not assume the role of the aggressor as in this case.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

don't point **** you're pretending to be a gun at the police.

And if the decedent did not know po-po be creepin' as you know they're creepin' and creepin' up behind him?

What if he thought it was his buddy and he was just screwing around with his buddy instead of the cops creeping up to shoot him?

What if a non-badge holder had shot an unarmed person on the stairs of an apartment?

BTW, why are the cops running toward what they think is a man with a gun without saying "police department! Let's see your hands!" if they did not want to shoot him? Is this not intent to kill if not murder?

 

[88GT]

There is only one "policy." If you have reason to be in fear of your life or of great bodily harm, you may use whatever degree of force is necessary to neutralize the threat.

There is no SOP mandating that you verbally challenge a suspect, or that you try to shoot the gun out of his hand, or any of the other asinine crap that armchair experts come up with after a situation like this occurs.

This guy was responsible for his own death through an act that was undeniably, grotesquely and terminally STUPID! He pointed something, in a combat stance, that looked exactly like a gun at a group of guys that he KNEW would shoot him to death for it!

I've been plenty vocal in these forums condemning my brother LEO's for acts that are either unconstitutional or stupid. This isn't one of those times.

The dead man was an idiot who got exactly what he deserved. This is Darwinism at its best.

You've no ****ing clue what Darwinism is. This is poor decisions topped off by stupid ones. And in case you missed the order, the stupid ones fall on the cops.

Note to self: do not engage the "as long as I go home at night" crowd any more.

 

[wrigleycub]

 

[grizman]

Hey Veterans.

What would happen to a Soldier, Sailor, Marine, or Airman that done something similar to what these LEOs done?!

Many years of hard labor followed by a dishonorable discharge up to and including death if found quilty.

 

[lane440]

Im just glad it wasnt a kid with a water pistol!!!! I was told by a history teacher when i was young respect but do not trust the cops because they can kill u ( right or wrong) and get away with it, now we all just kinda blew him off as kids because he had been in korea and nam , he always seemed extream as he was exposed to so much war and killing . Who would have known that decades later his teaching about freedom and escalating violence would become 100% true. While reading this thread its clearly separated by groups , the folks who are for basic human rights and freedoms and those who will stomp on us because they think they are entitled to do so . After all this i keep thinking , why are we (tax payers) being treated like cattle ??

 

[Arthur Dent]

We're treated like cattle because we get milked of our labor and wages to benefit someone else.

 

[Bendrx]

If it had been a gun, then this is barely worth mentioning. But since it wasn't a gun, it was a water nozzle that really doesn't look a lot like a gun (what a goofy looking magazine too and that brass barrel plug? Does dispatch give the description of the guns on these calls? For a tiny six shooter it looks kinda big and plasticy and non-six shooterish). After having a real one pointed at me I can say that some how the gun really does "Pop" out at you. I don't expect an everyday nozzle would have the same affect, but I've not had the misfortune of one being pointed at me so that I considered the need to kill in the name of self preservation.

Now, since this was a not a gun, the cops made a choice, a very bad and very wrong choice. As such, they should be held accountable for thier mistake. I'm not saying that they set out to "kill a gun owner", But thier mistaken actions resulted in murder. They need to be held accountable. If you chose to work as a Peace Officer, you need to realize that you've chosen to place yourself in harms way. That is not a free pass to screw up.

We don't have all the facts, and we will probably never have them to argue about either. Based on what I know these are my feelings. I find it hard to believe this was a clean shoot, and I also find it hard to believe that it was a malicious shoot. Poo happens and whatever guilt the dead guy may have had in all this has been settled, we just have to deal with the other two involved.

 

[Bendrx]

Now...let's say this is your home. And it's your wife and two kids dead inside at the hands of a man the police allowed to enter it because they waited to confront him. I'm sure now the police would be "a bunch of chicken **** mother ****ers" that "should have done their damn job and stopped this bastard".

Emotional arguments are rarely rational arguments. This is where liberals come from (couldn't resist). Point is, yes. Yes I would be very pissed, very emotional and very irrational. You are completely right.

I can tell you I would say something like "They should have at least tried to talk to him if he seemed a threat." I might even argue that they should have stopped him because he didn't belong there. But, for all they know, (Like in the news story) he might belong there after all. Emotions trample rights when let to control the actions of people. That is the whole purpose of policies, SOPs and laws.

You talk trash about my mama and I still can't shoot you. It's called letting rational thought win over emotions. I carry a gun, I can't allow emotions to control that firearm, nor can the police be allowed to let emotions guide thier bullets.

Edit: Also they wouldn't be Chicken **** M*****ers, they would have been in the right.

 

[E'villeGunner]

This was a very unfortunate accident. It's easy to sit back and say what if's. The responding officers were there, we weren't. I try to play in my mind what if I was in that situation as a LEO. You have a call of a man with a gun. You arrive and the man points what looks like a gun with a two holded grip which probably covered up a lot of the water nozzle. A lot of variables in play here, I think. Could he have just been sitting there with it down and out of sight when the LEO's approached and THEN raised it up? Giving them split seconds to action? IF that was the case, I think the actions were justified. Like I said, a lot of variables involved that we are not privy too yet.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Watch this video and maybe some can understand what the officers saw...

YouTube - Woman Threatens Cops with Cell Phone

 

[rambone]

Watch this video and maybe some can understand what the officers saw...

YouTube - Woman Threatens Cops with Cell Phone

Point taken regarding suicide-by-cop; But I haven't read anything that even verifies that he knew that he freaked out the neighbor, or that police were on the scene.



The article says that the officers called in a helicopter which was en route when they shot the man. A helicopter... for an unconfirmed MWAG call. I really get the feeling this was an excitable rookie officer who took this guy out. He wanted to be a hero, and didn't use his head.

 

[BaconGrease]

They should have just shot it out of his hand and everything would have turned out fine.