LTCH

[JDonhardt]

Does anyone know if you have to keep the LTCH on your person while carrying? Or is being licensed good enough, allowing one to leave the actual card at home?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Demo]

You have to have it on you anytime your carrying or transporting.

Only exception I know of is if you are carrying on your own property.

 

[Scutter01]

Carrying a handgun without a license is a statutory crime in Indiana. Your license is an affirmative defense against the crime. If you are stopped and don't have your license, you will (most likely) be arrested. However, the statute provides that upon production of your license, all charges are immediately dropped. Given the nature of bureaucracy, though, it may take some time (possibly forever) to expunge all record of your arrest.

IC 35-47-2-24
Indictment or information; defendant's burden to prove exemption or license; arrest, effect of production of valid license, or establishment of exemption
Sec. 24. (a) In an information or indictment brought for the enforcement of any provision of this chapter, it is not necessary to negate any exemption specified under this chapter, or to allege the absence of a license required under this chapter. The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter.
(b) Whenever a person who has been arrested or charged with a violation of section 1 of this chapter presents a valid license to the prosecuting attorney or establishes that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, any prosecution for a violation of section 1 of this chapter shall be dismissed immediately, and all records of an arrest or proceedings following arrest shall be destroyed immediately.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

 

[TRWXXA]

You'd better have your driver's license or other acceptable, government-issued, photo ID with you as well.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

However, the statute provides that upon production of your license, all charges are immediately dropped.

Immediately? Really.

If only more prosecutors read gun boards.

[Scene: Tippecanoe County Courthouse]

Your beloved poster: "Your grace, here's my client's LTCH. He left it at home because he ran down to Marsh for milk for his hungry infant."

Typical prosecutor: *grabbing lapels, strikes noble pose* "Your man is a criminal, most vile. He carried a pistol intending to murder women and minorities." *strikes another noble pose*

"Your Excellency, he did no such thing or Your Grace would have prosecuted him for that. Why don't you just dismiss the case so I can tell my client and relieve his stress level?"

"I'll have my underlings research this, subhuman."

"I'll just file the Motion to Dismiss."

 

[Kirk Freeman]

JD, no statutory requirement (unlike 9-24-1-1) but remember it is your burden to prove you have a LTCH. Get the license, carry the license.

While you are at it, slap it down on a photocopier and stick a copy in your glovebox and your range bag. No, don't put it on pink paper, make certain it is obvious that it is a copy.

You'd better have your driver's license or other acceptable, government-issued, photo ID with you as well.

And, praytell, via what statute is this? Is this Kirk's First Law?

Ye shall obey Kirk's First Law!!!

 

[Bill of Rights]

JD, no statutory requirement (unlike 9-24-1-1) but remember it is your burden to prove you have a LTCH. Get the license, carry the license.

While you are at it, slap it down on a photocopier and stick a copy in your glovebox and your range bag. No, don't put it on pink paper, make certain it is obvious that it is a copy.



And, praytell, via what statute is this? Is this Kirk's First Law?

Ye shall obey Kirk's First Law!!!

Probably not statute, just a good idea. More of those need to be like that: just a good idea, not a statute.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

BoR, I don't know if it's a good idea, but I wanted to ensure that INGO knew that there is no requirement to have your Operator's License if you are not operating a motor vehicle.

I gave Officer Cowboy my DL even though it was not required. Looking back I should have told him to jump in the canal but as angry as he was (and, of course, the gun pointing and spitting on me) I just gave him the DL. I shouldn't have but I did.

 

[Scutter01]

Immediately? Really.

If only more prosecutors read gun boards.

Yeah, you'll notice I did mention that it would probably be the heat-death of the universe before you could get your record cleared.


Oh, and BoR, you owe me another pallet of .223.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

In the ones I've done like this (guy forget LTCH but gets arrest [one was a PI thrown in with the CHWOL]), you get it done, Scutter, but it is not "immediately". Or, to be exact, never immediate enough for the client.

[Scene: palatial offices of your beloved poster]

*Brrrrring*

"Good morning, Law Offices of Your Beloved Poster."

"Kirk, it's me, have your heard anything."

"No, but it's 7:35AM and court does not open until 8AM. But as soon as I hear something, I promise that I'll call and shoot an e-mail."

*5 minutes later, brrrring*

"Have you heard anything yet?"

Mom was right, I should have stayed in Indy and practiced real estate law!!!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Oh, and BoR, you owe me another pallet of .223.

Wait, what scam, er, enterprise do you have going? Is this like the .45 acp that rhino owes me?

Pallets of .223?

I want in! I demand my third!

 

[Scutter01]

you get it done, Scutter, but it is not "immediately". Or, to be exact, never immediate enough for the client.

Oh, I have no doubt. Just quoting what the statute says, though. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that you'd be released right that second, though, if you're arrested in the middle of the night. I fully expect, however, that should it ever happen to me, you will have me released within seconds, or I will just keep calling you.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Yeah, you'll notice I did mention that it would probably be the heat-death of the universe before you could get your record cleared.


Oh, and BoR, you owe me another pallet of .223.

I corrected a misconception which seemed evident in a question. I owe you nothing... The same cannot be said for others.

 

[JoshuaW]

JD, no statutory requirement (unlike 9-24-1-1) but remember it is your burden to prove you have a LTCH. Get the license, carry the license.

While you are at it, slap it down on a photocopier and stick a copy in your glovebox and your range bag. No, don't put it on pink paper, make certain it is obvious that it is a copy.



And, praytell, via what statute is this? Is this Kirk's First Law?

Ye shall obey Kirk's First Law!!!

Any reason for not putting it on pink paper, or did I miss out on some sarcasm?

Kirk, you seem to be in a great mood tonight!

 

[CarmelHP]

Any reason for not putting it on pink paper, or did I miss out on some sarcasm?

Kirk, you seem to be in a great mood tonight!

We've discussed this before that it could be construed to be counterfeiting a license:

Sec. 2. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) makes or utters a written instrument in such a manner that it purports to have been made:
(A) by another person;
(B) at another time;
(C) with different provisions; or
(D) by authority of one who did not give authority; or
(2) possesses more than one (1) written instrument knowing that the written instruments were made in a manner that they purport to have been made:
(A) by another person;
(B) at another time;
(C) with different provisions; or
(D) by authority of one who did not give authority;
commits counterfeiting, a Class D felony.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

As well as potential Forgery, False Informing, inter alia.

Just ensure that it is obvious that it is a copy so you don't clever yourself into being whacked with other offenses.

 

[finity]

JD, no statutory requirement (unlike 9-24-1-1) but remember it is your burden to prove you have a LTCH. Get the license, carry the license.

I think you're mistaken.

The question was "do you [legally] have to carry the LTCH while you're carrying a handgun?"

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.

That language is a more specific requirement than the DL requirement you posted above which just says you have to have a license.

While the IC requires you to have it in your possession while carrying, it also gives you an out if you don't have it on you.

We've discussed this before that it could be construed to be counterfeiting a license:

Sec. 2. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) makes or utters a written instrument in such a manner that it purports to have been made:
(A) by another person;
(B) at another time;
(C) with different provisions; or
(D) by authority of one who did not give authority; or
(2) possesses more than one (1) written instrument knowing that the written instruments were made in a manner that they purport to have been made:
(A) by another person;
(B) at another time;
(C) with different provisions; or
(D) by authority of one who did not give authority;
commits counterfeiting, a Class D felony.

Thanks. That's good to know.

I must have missed that discussion. I've seen many more that said it's OK. Misinformation is dangerous.

 

[Jim W.]

Well thats interesting. How can they tell it is a copy? They use cheap pink paper that doesn't have any secret writing or pictures imprinted in it. How about laminating it?

Jim

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I think you're mistaken.

The question was "do you [legally] have to carry the LTCH while you're carrying a handgun?"

That language is a more specific requirement than the DL requirement you posted above which just says you have to have a license.

While the IC requires you to have it in your possession while carrying, it also gives you an out if you don't have it on you.

Thanks. That's good to know.

I must have missed that discussion. I've seen many more that said it's OK. Misinformation is dangerous.

The question is what kind of possession? Immediate, constructive etc.? There are various types of possession. For instance the LEOs raid a guys house while he is not there. They find 500 kilos of coke and heroin. He gets charged with possession with intent to distribute. He was not in actual possession of the drugs. He did not have them on or about his body. The same can be said about the contents of my safe deposit box, I have possession of a few family photos and some jewelry and other papers, but I do not have actual possession of them. Farther down in the statute Kirk posted is the requirements for out of state drivers which specifies immediate possession.

(3) A nonresident who:
(A) is at least sixteen (16) years and one (1) month of age;
(B) has in the nonresident's immediate possession a valid operator's license that was issued to the nonresident in the nonresident's home state or country; and
(C) is lawfully admitted into the United States;
while operating a motor vehicle in Indiana only as an operator.

As was stated above showing a valid LTCH is "suppossed" to be enough to clear any charges for carrying without a LTCH. So yes it is legal to carry without it being on your person. But to use a well used phrase, you'll beat the rap but you'll still get the ride.

We've discussed this before that it could be construed to be counterfeiting a license:

Sec. 2. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) makes or utters a written instrument in such a manner that it purports to have been made:
(A) by another person;
(B) at another time;
(C) with different provisions; or
(D) by authority of one who did not give authority; or
(2) possesses more than one (1) written instrument knowing that the written instruments were made in a manner that they purport to have been made:
(A) by another person;
(B) at another time;
(C) with different provisions; or
(D) by authority of one who did not give authority;
commits counterfeiting, a Class D felony.

As well as potential Forgery, False Informing, inter alia.

Just ensure that it is obvious that it is a copy so you don't clever yourself into being whacked with other offenses.

Well thats interesting. How can they tell it is a copy? They use cheap pink paper that doesn't have any secret writing or pictures imprinted in it. How about laminating it?

Jim

How can they tell if it's a copy? Here is how. Government Uses Color Laser Printer Technology to Track Documents - PCWorld
Yellow Dots of Mystery: Is Your Printer Spying on You?

But the question I have is this, I may or may not have made many copies on pink paper, again I may or may not have signed the original and laminated it with the others by mistake. But for sake of arguement, let's say I did, and I cannot tell them apart. I have no idea which is which. How can I be legal without shredding all of them and getting a duplicate copy from the ISP?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

While the IC requires you to have it in your possession while carrying, it also gives you an out if you don't have it on you.

Do you possess the clothing that you are not wearing right now?

Do you possess the guns you are not carrying right now?

I possess my LTCH even though it is all the way across my office in my wallet in my briefcase.

The way the statute is written it is your burden to prove that you possess a LTCH. I'd have it on me so I can prove it to the officer. I'd have an obvious copy in my glovebox, rangebag, briefcase, in case I forget my wallet in my other suit (or on the kitchen island or wherever).

How about laminating it?

I see no harm. I laminated mine, but the copies that I have in my glovebox, my rangebag and in my safe are on white copy paper.

I get pulled over for obeying the speed limit (like my last ticket) and somehow it come up that I have my pistols on me. I reach for my wallet . . . oops, it is not there. I ask if he wants to see a copy as I left my wallet in my other suit.

1. He says O.K. and calls in my LTCH status and I get my wrongful ticket and proceed with my life until the day of the bench trial on the wrongful ticket.

2. He says "you are under arrest". I go along peacefully with the nice officer, get bonded out and then move to dismiss the prosecution (if filed) and then move to expunge all records of the arrest and prosecution (if any).

How can they tell it is a copy?

Because it is on white paper and I tell them that it is a copy as I left the pink card in my other suit.

IME, cops hate it when it appears that you are trying to pull a fast one. I mean think about it, everyone, everyday lies to them.

You are not doing anything wrong but always a good idea to limit your interactions with the police, but if you have to talk to them (as in this situation), do NOT even appear to lie to them or "pull a fast one".