LEO comments on trespassng and going to jail

[churchmouse]

That's not how trespass works. Marion county won't file even if there is signage if you weren't notified in person and it was documented.

Now, I'll tell a largely irrelevant "back in the day" story of when it could work like that. My maternal grandfather owned rural property that he only visited on weekends, as he lived and worked in the city. He had a good sized pond and had trouble with people fishing in it without permission. He posted no trespass signs without much affect. Finally he made "permission slips" (done on business cards) that said "________ has my permission to fish and or hunt on my property from X date to Y date" and his signature. He contacted the Sheriff, let him know of the arrangement, and gave him permission to issue trespass notices and arrest anyone without said card.

Now, that was about 30 years ago and in a very rural county with a small sheriff's department and one criminal court judge. Things are different now.

Yes, they are. Private property has little regard in the legal arena.

 

[ScouT6a]

USMCdjb, Sounds like, as a reserve deputy, you had better get some more training before you think about hauling anyone in on trespassing charges.


"I think it starts to get interesting at (a)(7), and might apply since it is vacant property, that you are trespassing after being prohibited by a LEO. But if you keep going, it says in (c) that they may not ask you to leave unless there is reasonable suspicion of criminal activity."

Unimproved property does not equate to vacant property, buddy.

 

[Crbn79]

amboy, what have you learned from INGO about taking legal advice from the police?

I own my property. Need I write myself a letter to give myself consent to be upon my property?

I mean really, is he going to charge you with Child abuse as well. Correct me if I'm mistaken Kirk, but doesn't the Police/Sheriff have to be a documented "agent" of the property owner acting in their stead to charge you with trespassing? Anytime I have trespassed someone in the past I had to notify the Police department and fill out a "notice of trespass" against the named individual. After which the Police could arrest for Trespass any future occurrence.

 

[singlestacksig]

i don't know about the new version of the law, but under current version I had to specifically give the local CO & Sheriffs permission to charge persons found on my property if i was not there.

 

[churchmouse]

So I'm thinking here's the scenario.

1. Officer confronts me. I say I have permission. He says prove it. I provide the owner's name and phone number. He says how do I know the person I am calling is who you say he is.

2. Next step - I say I have written permission from the landowner. He says let's see it. I produce a one paragraph statement giving me permission to be on the property for all lawfull purpose. The deputy says how do I know the landowner wrote it.

3. So I get the owner's signature on the permission notarized. Deputy says - how do I know the notary is legal and how do I know that is the landowner ?

4. So I get a copy of the current plat book and highlight the name. Not good enough, so I get a copy of the recorded deed from the county courthouse with the owner's name.

5. Deputy states the deed I am showing him was recorded several years ago. How does he know the land hasn't changed hands since the time the deed I'm showing him was recorded.

6. So I get my GoPro and record my friend , who is holding a local paper that clearly reflects the date, stating that I have permission to be on the property and showing us both in the picture with him giving me a big hug.

7. Deputy states how does he know this is the real landowner and not just my gay friend contributing to the conspiracy. ( No, I am not gay and don't have a gay friend - thought I should clarify that )

8. So I say - here's a written affidavit of my bona fides from my past boy scout leader, my mother, my pastor, my wife, the choral director of my church, and 18 guys that are fellow volunteer firefighters. He says "You can't get anything past me that easily" and I'm off to jail for the night.

9. I call an attorney who charges me $1,000 to speak to the judge while my wife is withdrawing enough cash to bond me out. In the meantime the local paper has published all of the latest police calls and jailed offenders. My name appears and now my employer and the two community not-for-profit boards I am on see this so I get fired and kicked off the two boards because I've violated the moral turpitude clause on my employer.

10. The attorney states he's gotten me off but he needs another $5,000 for his valuable time and experience. I get the cash bond money back but because my wife took it out of the wrong account the bank charges me a $50 overdraft fee.

11. My kids see the write-up in the local paper and mistakenly call to ask why their father is now a convicted felon who has forfeited his rights to gun ownershp ? They know I am an endowement member of the NRA, a military veteran, and have generally been an upstanding member of the community for over 30 years without so much as a moving traffic violation.

12. Because I've lost my job I can no longer support my wife in the manner she's become accustomed to and leaves me for a 20 something she met while at the grocery who has just happened to have hit the Power Ball and is now worth $250 million dollars.

13. I'm now left to go down to Indianapolis on the street corner with a sign around my neck stating "Will work for food."

Maybe I should just join the Marion County Fish and Game Club and shoot there ?

I am a member......You can go with me.....

Well said.

 

[drillsgt]

"Got home about 15 minutes later only to have a sheriff's deputy pull up in my driveway." At which point, I went on in the house and enjoyed my evening. Why even have a conversation with the sheriff's deputy?

The punishment for contempt of cop in this manner would probably incite a full breach.

 

[drillsgt]

I looked up Zionsville and noticed it is in Boone County. Knowing who the Sheriff is up there why don't you give him a call. The IC for trespassing was posted. If landowner doesn't complain, you are being safe and not doing anything illegal then it really is not an issue that involves the Deputy.

The Deputy's probably a fan of the Mothers Against Gun Violence and was just trying to do his part, they would approve.

 

[Crbn79]

The punishment for contempt of cop in this manner would probably incite a full breach.

LOL, like the FBI Tactical team in full battle rattle and armored assault vehicles that raided a Political campaign office for suspected campaign funds misuse?

 

[throttletony]

good -- although long - thread.
As the expert at not being LEO or a lawyer, I'd say the real issue (and how to avoid future confrontations) really starts and ends with the neighbor. If I had time today, I'd make up a witty flow-chart to show steps to deal with neighbor, but I'm writing a dissertation instead.
1) Sounds like there's plenty of advice on the trespassing issue (Get a signed paper is the easiest way to cover your butt, and if it's your buddy, it's not like that'd be hard) As others have said, I think its the landowner, who gets involved with trespassing -- NOT the nosy neighbor. I always thought that LE couldn't get involved without landowners consent (for trespassing, not some far-fetched life and death situation)
2) So, only ONE other person mentioned the fact that you really need to make sure that NO rounds are crossing/hitting neighbor's property. That's what he's pissed about in the first place. Safe direction, ample backstop, and you should be fine. I'd try to explain how/where you're shooting and that it is safe. If he doesn't wanna hear you out, good fences make for good neighbors! You could also have your buddy inform him that you and he shoot there, explain or even show him the area where you shoot - including backstop - and see if that puts his mind at ease. It's a PR move, but it'll save you this headache in the future.

 

[VERT]

2) So, only ONE other person mentioned the fact that you really need to make sure that NO rounds are crossing/hitting neighbor's property. That's what he's pissed about in the first place. Safe direction, ample backstop, and you should be fine. I'd try to explain how/where you're shooting and that it is safe. If he doesn't wanna hear you out, good fences make for good neighbors! You could also have your buddy inform him that you and he shoot there, explain or even show him the area where you shoot - including backstop - and see if that puts his mind at ease. It's a PR move, but it'll save you this headache in the future.

It may very well be the case that rounds are leaving the property or the backstop is unsafe. I don't know the OP or the property in question.

From experience it is most likely the neighbor being a horses bottom. I have access to a private range as well as a conservation club. That is two different ranges. In both cases we have a neighbor that causes all sorts of ruckus. First call is always to the county Sheriff, which of course does not do anything because there are no illegal activities or safety issues. I can think of at least 3 other ranges off the top of my head that have had activities limited or suspended by complaining neighbors. Again no safety issues with the ranges. It really boils down to noise. If other people can hear or smell something they automatically think it affects them in some way.

I have never seen compromise with the neighbors work. I hate to say that because regardless of my internet bad boy persona, I am actually a pretty nice guy. These people don't want to compromise because they feel entitled to tell others how to live their lives. What I have seen that works is putting up a locked gate/cable/fence, keeping that gate locked and going about your business. IMO as long as I am not hurting anybody then it really is not their concern.

 

[KLB]

Can't remember exactly when(70-80's) but I seem to remember that requirement if hunting, never heard of it concerning anything else. Have you considered actually contacting the sheriff and asking him to cite the Indiana code that his deputy is threatening you with?

Is still true for coyotes at least. Maybe the officer was confused about this.
DNR: Coyotes

Landowners, or a person with written permission from a landowner, may take coyotes year-round on private property by snaring, trapping or shooting without a permit from the DNR. A landowner does not need a permit to take coyotes on his/her property by one of these methods, but a hunting or trapping license is required to hunt or trap coyotes on land other than your own.

 

[KG1]

USMCdjb, Sounds like, as a reserve deputy, you had better get some more training before you think about hauling anyone in on trespassing charges.


"I think it starts to get interesting at (a)(7), and might apply since it is vacant property, that you are trespassing after being prohibited by a LEO. But if you keep going, it says in (c) that they may not ask you to leave unless there is reasonable suspicion of criminal activity."

Unimproved property does not equate to vacant property, buddy.

You mean a deputy doesn't have the authority to declare a property vacant in the field?

 

[throttletony]

It may very well be the case that rounds are leaving the property or the backstop is unsafe. I don't know the OP or the property in question.

From experience it is most likely the neighbor being a horses bottom. I have access to a private range as well as a conservation club. That is two different ranges. In both cases we have a neighbor that causes all sorts of ruckus. First call is always to the county Sheriff, which of course does not do anything because there are no illegal activities or safety issues. I can think of at least 3 other ranges off the top of my head that have had activities limited or suspended by complaining neighbors. Again no safety issues with the ranges. It really boils down to noise. If other people can hear or smell something they automatically think it affects them in some way.

I have never seen compromise with the neighbors work. I hate to say that because regardless of my internet bad boy persona, I am actually a pretty nice guy. These people don't want to compromise because they feel entitled to tell others how to live their lives. What I have seen that works is putting up a locked gate/cable/fence, keeping that gate locked and going about your business. IMO as long as I am not hurting anybody then it really is not their concern.

You are likely right, the neighbor is probably just an idiot and would be just as pissed about loud motorcycles or music as he is about guns. Unless he was being impossible, I would at least attempt to talk to him**. But, I agree with the general idea in your post. That's why I said earlier, if nothing else, good fences make for good neighbors
In other words, your locked gate idea sounds good to me

**as landowner. as a buddy, not so much

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Correct me if I'm mistaken Kirk, but doesn't the Police/Sheriff have to be a documented "agent" of the property owner acting in their stead to charge you with trespassing?

Sort of.

The officer must be an agent of the property, or acting on their behalf, to issue a trespass notice. The officer does not have to be an agent to make an arrest for trespass if other elements of the crime are met (ie, an agent is present who is issuing the trespass notice, the officer knows that someone who was an agent previously issued a trespass notice to the person, etc.) We used to have lists of people trespassed from area hotels, for example. We had all the documentation we needed to make an arrest if one of them were to be found on the property, such as name and contact information for the employee who issued the trespass notice, the date and time it occurred, etc. We did not have to be an agent of the property to make an arrest under those circumstances.

 

[KG1]

Absent a complaint by the property owner or an agent thereof or any other indication that a crime has been committed on that property I don't see how the deputy has any other legal option (pending further investigation) but to take the OP's word for it that he has permission to be on the property.

 

[clbrock18]

Ridiculous, sounds like a neighbor who didn't like hearing a gun and a officer who needs to loosen his belt a bit.