legal options for being asked to leave.

[AngryRooster]

Say your at a restaurant and are already eating, do you pay for you meal?

That's been discussed a few times on here before. Some people said yes, some said no, almost everyone said they would leave a nice tip because it wasn't the servers fault (unless it was).

Myself, I will not pay for a meal I haven't finished before I was told to leave. I will also not volunteer to leave before they have made it clear they are asking me to do so. Most of the time I don't patronize a place that has a sign. If they don't have a sign and come up to me and ask me to cover it up, the answer would be no. (No likely since I don't open carry very often at all). If they ask me to leave it in the car, the answer is no. I then ask them if they are asking me to leave.

If they hem-haw around then I continue to eat until I finish or something changes. I pay my bill directly to the manager and explain why I, along with every other member of my family, will never be back. I explain that I will make sure all 38,210 members of this forum will be told the situation and how it was handled. I hand him a "no guns, no cash" card before I leave.

If they say yes, we are asking you to leave, then I do exactly that, right then and there. I do not pay for an uncompleted product or service. I go home and contact the manager AND corporate and explain the above to them over the phone. If corporate tells me that isn't the policy and the manager took it upon himself to do what he did then I ask corporate to explain to the manager that he can apologize to me and my guests at the restaurant, right there at the checkout or a table. They embarrassed my and my family in public, they can apologize right there as well.

I will leave a nice tip unless I have evidence the server had something to do with the situation. In that case I do not tip at all. I usually have a voice recorder either with me or in the car most of the time. It fits nicely in a Fobus Glock 45 single mag pouch. Whenever I'm out for anything more than a quick post office or fuel trip it gets turned on. I make sure they explain to me that they are the ones asking me to leave. If I get up on my own and volunteer to leave then that's on me, not them. If they get really y and call the police because I didn't want to pay for my meal then they get to listen to me offer to stay & finish and pay the check, or them ordering me out of the restaurant before I'm finished.

I go out of my way not to cause any problems when I'm out with others at various places. The last thing I want to do is ruin an evening over something senseless as this. I make sure everything is concealed well and I don't expose it accidentally. I've requested different tables and changed places with others at the table to make sure of this when necessary. Most of the time everything is just fine. Only twice it's ever been an issue. Once I was told to leave, the other time they backed off when I told them I wasn't putting it in the car. Both times I got the snivel and whine BS from corporate and many apologies, but it was for the comfort of the guests. I asked them if I was considered a guest or not. One of them flat out told me, "We don't consider you a guest anymore" the other gave me the 'feelings of the many' line. I've not been back to either place.

Just my .

 

[canterbc]

I believe the original question has been sufficiently answered. One thing I've always wondered is can any employee ask you to leave or does it have to be a manager? Can a 19 year old anti-gun cashier tell me to leave or does it need to be a manager before trespassing charges come into play? My guess is that as agents of the company any employee would carry equal weight legally, but not sure. What if one employee asks me to leave but another says I'm okay?

 

[oldpink]

I believe the original question has been sufficiently answered. One thing I've always wondered is can any employee ask you to leave or does it have to be a manager? Can a 19 year old anti-gun cashier tell me to leave or does it need to be a manager before trespassing charges come into play? My guess is that as agents of the company any employee would carry equal weight legally, but not sure. What if one employee asks me to leave but another says I'm okay?

I'm sure a legal eagle would provide the fine points, but it seems a dead certainty that an underling conveying the request of his manager carries the same weight as having come directly from the manager.

 

[snowwalker]

I still have a hard time believing that people go to starbucks for over priced coffee. It must be a mental defect.

The saga of the OC continues, that is why I CC.

 

[ATM]

I still have a hard time believing that people go to starbucks for over priced coffee. It must be a mental defect.

The saga of the OC continues, that is why I CC.

Interesting.

I just can't imagine the uninformed opinions of employees at establishments I don't even frequent having any bearing on whether I chose to conceal the fact that I carry.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I believe the original question has been sufficiently answered. One thing I've always wondered is can any employee ask you to leave or does it have to be a manager? Can a 19 year old anti-gun cashier tell me to leave or does it need to be a manager before trespassing charges come into play? My guess is that as agents of the company any employee would carry equal weight legally, but not sure. What if one employee asks me to leave but another says I'm okay?

The relevant IC code states:

(b) A person who:
(1) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly
or intentionally enters the real property of another person after
having been denied entry by the other person or that person's
agent;
(2) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly
or intentionally refuses to leave the real property of another
person after having been asked to leave by the other person or
that person's agent;

As long as they are an agent of the person (business, in this case) they count as far as the trespass goes. Now this can be countermanded by a different agent in private dwellings. If one person says you have to leave and one person says you can stay (and assuming they are both agents) you are not trespassing. I've never seen it happen in a business, but I would GUESS the same principal would apply, but it is just a guess.

 

[Dead Duck]

Even more confusing like at Walmart - Where we know that corporate is OK with guns but some anti-gun greeters don't know this and/or don't care.

 

[snowwalker]

Interesting.

I just can't imagine the uninformed opinions of employees at establishments I don't even frequent having any bearing on whether I chose to conceal the fact that I carry.

You may carry as you wish, but my way works best for me. Not once have I been asked to leave a place of business because I carry. Yes, I know the arguments, and I like my way.

 

[AngryRooster]

must have a legal reason if you ask me

40 more to go?

 

[Royal-1]

Tell that to the couple that is out of business and being forced to pay $140K+ for refusing to do a gay wedding cake.

This is what gets me, The 2nd is in the constitution, but I can be asked to leave and not served for excising my right to be armed, but if I were LGBT... then it does not matter the business owner must serve me. Something very wrong with that. Just saying.

 

[Leo]

The LGBT issues are a perversion of the law. In privately owned, competitive business, no one is legally under compulsion to do business with anyone else. Anything that puts either party under compulsion is unconstitutional. I have even refused to do business with governmental entities in the City of Chicago.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This is what gets me, The 2nd is in the constitution, but I can be asked to leave and not served for excising my right to be armed, but if I were LGBT... then it does not matter the business owner must serve me. Something very wrong with that. Just saying.

I've been asked to leave way more often due to my use of the 1st amendment then the 2nd...

 

[HamsterStyle]

Options:
1. Leave
2. Trespass

I've been asked to leave way more often due to my use of the 1st amendment then the 2nd...

If I had a nickel. ...

 

[mondomojo]

The legal stuff has all been covered. But getting to the root of it all, it's often better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. If the weapon is noticeable enough to get attention, then it isn't very concealed. I've carried in many places that would likely frown upon it. They've never noticed, so I've never had a problem. If asked, I would leave or lock it up in the car.

 

[rhino]

I've been asked to leave way more often due to my use of the 1st amendment then the 2nd...

Get outta here!

No, really . . . get outta here!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Get outta here!

No, really . . . get outta here!

When I was in the Army I would occasionally indulge in an alcoholic beverage in a public location. I became quite adept at noticing bouncers moving my way. Mostly via experience. Never for fighting. Normally for noise. Maybe once for vomiting. But I was in the bathroom and it went where it was supposed to go, so what's the effing problem?

It is *not* my fault that this effing place doesn't sell pizza and I really want pizza. What kind of bar doesn't sell effing pizza?

On a side note, Taco Bell thinks its pretty funny when you walk through the drive through and explain to them that you don't have a car with you but would like tacos anyway. Also of note, the speaker thing doesn't notice you are there, even if you jump up and down.

I'd never want to be in my 20's again. I'm surprised I survived the first time.

 

[rhino]

When I was in the Army I would occasionally indulge in an alcoholic beverage in a public location. I became quite adept at noticing bouncers moving my way. Mostly via experience. Never for fighting. Normally for noise. Maybe once for vomiting. But I was in the bathroom and it went where it was supposed to go, so what's the effing problem?

It is *not* my fault that this effing place doesn't sell pizza and I really want pizza. What kind of bar doesn't sell effing pizza?

On a side note, Taco Bell thinks its pretty funny when you walk through the drive through and explain to them that you don't have a car with you but would like tacos anyway. Also of note, the speaker thing doesn't notice you are there, even if you jump up and down.

I'd never want to be in my 20's again. I'm surprised I survived the first time.

You didn't get into a scuffle with some other dude who took your gun away from you, did you?

 

[HoughMade]

Even more confusing like at Walmart - Where we know that corporate is OK with guns but some anti-gun greeters don't know this and/or don't care.

Well that's an interesting question that goes to some of the finer points of Agency Law. When a person is acting in the course and scope of their employment, they are an agent (there are other types of agents, but this hypothetical is based upon employment). Therefore, if the agent tells you to leave that could trigger the trespass statute. However, it would appear in this scenario that the agent is not authorized to tell you to leave, so he would be acting outside his express authority. However, the statute doesn't say anything about acting with express authority. It just says an "agent". I would guess that this was a considered decision to try to avoid arguments about who can say "get out" and who can't and to draw a bright line, but maybe I'm giving too much credit.

I guess that if you believed that the greeter didn't have authority, then you may not have had the mens rea​ to commit criminal trespass as you believed that under the corporate policy, you had a right to be there...but that's an argument that may have to be made ti a judge....which I would prefer to avoid if I could.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You didn't get into a scuffle with some other dude who took your gun away from you, did you?

Nope. I didn't have a gun for them to take away. Kansas didn't have any sort of handgun permit back then.

Even drunk, I wasn't a "scuffler". The one time I actually had a physical altercation at a bar I was sober as I was the DD and a large fight broke out. One of the participants got knocked out of the ring, got turned around, and charged me while I was taking a break from shooting pool to observe the commotion.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Well that's an interesting question that goes to some of the finer points of Agency Law. When a person is acting in the course and scope of their employment, they are an agent (there are other types of agents, but this hypothetical is based upon employment). Therefore, if the agent tells you to leave that could trigger the trespass statute. However, it would appear in this scenario that the agent is not authorized to tell you to leave, so he would be acting outside his express authority. However, the statute doesn't say anything about acting with express authority. It just says an "agent". I would guess that this was a considered decision to try to avoid arguments about who can say "get out" and who can't and to draw a bright line, but maybe I'm giving too much credit.

I guess that if you believed that the greeter didn't have authority, then you may not have had the mens rea​ to commit criminal trespass as you believed that under the corporate policy, you had a right to be there...but that's an argument that may have to be made ti a judge....which I would prefer to avoid if I could.

I'd say the issue is that while Wal-mart may say guns are ok, they don't say "you can ignore our employee telling you to leave." The trespass charge doesn't care why you were told to leave. Now if another employee were there and said you don't have to leave, then you should be fine, but I wouldn't risk my own legal backside on the supposed ambiguity of a greeter not being within corporate policy.