Judge Orders Muslim-Turned-Christian Teen Home

[steveh_131]

1. No, the children are in NO danger...... (unless the parents follow sharia law and the kids turn away from islam, then Hold on to your head)

Ok, so you advocate removing from their home any children who turn from Islam in a Muslim household? We should clear this up just so I know what sort of discussion this really is.

2. Do you have any case to site or are you just blindly speculating to attempt to back your argument?

It's no more speculation than the argument that these parents will kill their daughter. It's a little difficult to look up the stats since it's not labeled an "Honor Killing" and attributed to Christianity. It's labeled "crazy" and attributed to "craziness".

 

[printcraft]

She's a minor. Her parents call the shots. That's the law. If you want to advocate changing that law, feel free. I won't argue it. But as it stands, they have the right to raise her as they see fit. If they kill her, they should be punished according to the law. They should not, however, be punished pre-emptively based on no evidence other than the name of their religion and a rebelling child.

See below.

printcraft...
She needs to go to a foster home until she can file to become Emancipated.

Yes, she is a minor. Minor, minors to her minorness have been emancipated for less.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip

It's no more speculation than the argument that these parents will kill their daughter. It's a little difficult to look up the stats since it's not labeled an "Honor Killing" and attributed to Christianity. It's labeled "crazy" and attributed to "craziness".

So, the answer to the question "Can you support the claim that Christians are engaging in honor killings in the United States today?" is "NO," right?

Seriously, show the Christian denomination here in the US that is commanding it's adherents to kill children to convert to other religions... and examples of it actually happening.

 

[steveh_131]

See below.
Yes, she is a minor. Minor, minors to her minorness have been emancipated for less.

That's not the topic of discussion here. The topic of discussion is her parents being denied their rights. Hypothetically, let's say she's 12 and can't live on her own. What then?

 

[printcraft]

1. No, the children are in NO danger...... (unless the parents follow sharia law and the kids turn away from islam, then Hold on to your head)

1. Ok, so you advocate removing from their home any children who turn from Islam in a Muslim household? We should clear this up just so I know what sort of discussion this really is.



2. It's no more speculation than the argument that these parents will kill their daughter. It's a little difficult to look up the stats since it's not labeled an "Honor Killing" and attributed to Christianity. It's labeled "crazy" and attributed to "craziness".

1. Never said anything about forcefully removing anyone. She made her decision to leave based on a reasonable fear.


2. "Going through life with blinders on it's tough to see" - Alice

The light in a couple of links - eh, your right just blind speculation on my part, nothing to see, move along.



UK Muslim Honor Killing: Wife & Daughters Burned Alive - IRIS Blog


Muslim slays daughter in 'honor killing'


Honor Killing in Texas - HUMAN EVENTS


Islamic "Honor Killings" Now in America ~ gad-fly

Should I go on?

 

[steveh_131]

1. Never said anything about forcefully removing anyone. She made her decision to leave based on a reasonable fear.

She's a minor. She's too young to make that decision. Either she's given back to her parents or the government is deciding to take her away. Period. That's what you're advocating. Stop playing around with the details and own up to it.

2. "Going through life with blinders on it's tough to see" - Alice

New Report Shows 3,184 Children and Teen Firearm Deaths in 2006

Look, these guns killed kids, therefore all guns will kill kids.

Thank you for taking off my blinders.

 

[printcraft]

That's not the topic of discussion here. The topic of discussion is her parents being denied their rights. Hypothetically, let's say she's 12 and can't live on her own. What then?

Hypothetically, let's say I'm the Easter Bunny and I won't be giving out any eggs this year. I'm tired and my butt hurts from all the egg expression and
all the food coloring I have to eat to make the bright colors. What then?

Let's stick to the facts at hand please, changing the facts does not a position make.

We have rights too.

She's a minor. She's too young to make that decision. Either she's given back to her parents or the government is deciding to take her away. Period. That's what you're advocating. Stop playing around with the details and own up to it.
.........

Not the .gov's decision either. Nothing to own up to.
Believe me if I did think it was the .gov decision I would tell you.
I have no reservations with telling you what I think.
We may agree on everything else, just not having a meeting of the minds here.

 

[steveh_131]

Hypothetically, let's say I'm the Easter Bunny and I won't be giving out any eggs this year. I'm tired and my butt hurts from all the egg expression and
all the food coloring I have to eat to make the bright colors. What then?

Let's stick to the facts at hand please, changing the facts does not a position make.

I just want to clarify the point. You keep backpedaling on your position, claiming that she's 17, she should get to make her own decision. I'd like to move past that to the real discussion.

If she WAS 12, what would your position be on this? Should the government take her away from her parents and put her in foster care?

 

[printcraft]

I just want to clarify the point. You keep backpedaling on your position, claiming that she's 17, she should get to make her own decision. I'd like to move past that to the real discussion.

If she WAS 12, what would your position be on this? Should the government take her away from her parents and put her in foster care?

OK you got me, If she were 12 she is too young to be emancipated and should
be returned to her parents to be summarily executed. Then we can punish the parents.
Oh, should the .gov punish the parents? or do we let allah sort it out?

What would your position on the .gov punishing them be? Why should we trust them on that end of it?

The elephant in the room is sharia law.

 

[steveh_131]

OK you got me, If she were 12 she is too young to be emancipated and should
be returned to her parents to be summarily executed. Then we can punish the parents.
Oh, should the .gov punish the parents? or do we let allah sort it out?

What would your position on the .gov punishing them be? Why should we trust them on that end of it?

The elephant in the room is sharia law.

I find it interesting that you won't answer the simple question.

 

[The Meach]

I think that she should be brought home.

I think that this wacko Christian Fundie quite literally brainwashed her. Personally I think charges should be brought against the minister.

I hape that that family is going to be able to heal from all that.

(I had something similar to this happen to me when i was a Kid. One of the teachers at my kindergarten in Louisiana (who0 was also a local baptist minister) told me that I shouldn't want to be Catholic anymore because Catholics do human sacrifices and drink blood. It was a hard time for my family. And it was a long time before I wasn't afraid to go to Church.)

 

[printcraft]

I find it interesting that you won't answer the simple question.

A:
NO! the .gov should not take her away.

And before you attempt to use that as a basis to nullify my argument,
She should have assistance in getting FREE herself.

Let's turn our backs on her and hope for the best. I'll bring the eggs.

 

[SavageEagle]

I just want to clarify the point. You keep backpedaling on your position, claiming that she's 17, she should get to make her own decision. I'd like to move past that to the real discussion.

If she WAS 12, what would your position be on this? Should the government take her away from her parents and put her in foster care?

Let me get this straight....

Because she's 17, and by most state's standards, she can make most of her own choices (Have sex, get a passport and fly to some other Country, etc), she has no right to live if that's what her parents choose?

I'm sorry, but that's just asinine. Yes, if she was 12, I'd like to see her go into foster care. HER PARENT'S THREATENED TO KILL HER. No, that's not a good enough reason to flee for her life. Maybe if it had been a crazy ex-boyfriend, but not her parents. There's no documented cases in the United States of Honor Killings or anything.... It just simply doesn't ever happen...

If that girl dies people WILL hold the judge responsible and I'd be suprised if he makes it to court with his life one day. Not that I personally would wish anything bad happened to him except to go to jail, but there are people in Florida that are that crazy....

I don't think that any amount of stalling will matter. She JUST turned 17 so unless they have some REALLY good stalling techniques there's just no way she can remain away from home.

I bet $20 the family either moves back to their home Country or the daughter mysteriously comes up missing.... In either case I will wish very bad things on the family. This is just sickening. I've been following this whole thing from the beginning and listened to her talk about how she feels about Christianity and her parents and on and on. She sounds like a typical teenager Evangelical that has just found God. Yea, she sounds a little wild, but she'd have to be to run away from home! Good for her for finding God!

Now I hope God protects her from the evil that awaits her when she gets home...

 

[public servant]

We spend a lot of time complaining about activist judges, but it seems like this judge (in this case) is doing what the law requires, which is to turn the case over to an Ohio court so that CPS can get involved. His hands may be tied. Is it the right thing or the moral thing to do? I don't know. That's not for me to decide. However, you can't have it both ways. You can't have judges deciding on whether a particular law is just or not only when it suits you.

 

[steveh_131]

Let me get this straight....

Because she's 17, and by most state's standards, she can make most of her own choices (Have sex, get a passport and fly to some other Country, etc), she has no right to live if that's what her parents choose?

I'm sorry, but that's just asinine. Yes, if she was 12, I'd like to see her go into foster care. HER PARENT'S THREATENED TO KILL HER. No, that's not a good enough reason to flee for her life. Maybe if it had been a crazy ex-boyfriend, but not her parents. There's no documented cases in the United States of Honor Killings or anything.... It just simply doesn't ever happen...

There is no evidence that her parents threatened to kill her, other than her own statements. Her parents statement:

"I love my daughter and I want her to come back to the family," he said, declining further comment. Do you really think he'd dishonor himself by lying publically so that he could later claim honor for killing her?


And none of this is the point. The point is that there is ZERO proof that these parents have done anything wrong. Hell no I don't believe them, and hell no I don't think they're fit to be parents. But it's a damn slippery slope to start taking kids away from parents based on zero evidence of anything but a religion. I say the government needs to give the kid back and stay out of it until they actually break the law.



I'm really surprised that so many self-proclaimed small-government advocates are quick to jump on the bandwagon, just because it involves Muslims.

 

[The Meach]

There is no proof that anyone's parents threatened to kill anyone. That is all lies implanted by this minister in Florida. You all need to read to head the full story from someplace else than the op ed time-slot at Fox News (btw FN can be just a little bit biased in cases like these).

And before you guys go on about Shira law, or what ever. I'd like to mention...

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)​

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)​

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)​

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)​

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) Have you ever done that?​

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). I wonder if Dr. Laura would like that one to be enforced?​

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)​

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)​

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants. Are they crazy?​

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)​

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)​

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)​

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)​

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)​

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)



Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)​

If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)​

If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)​

Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)


Also (as outlined in Exodus 21:7) its to bad That the girl didn't make it to a christian household. I would like to buy her, as I could sure use a new concubine.


​

 

[Fletch]

Every child has the right to leave their parents' home and engage in self-ownership, no matter their age. That the government does not recognize this right is a sign that something's wrong with the government, not the child.

 

[public servant]

Every child has the right to leave their parents' home and engage in self-ownership, no matter their age. That the government does not recognize this right is a sign that something's wrong with the government, not the child.

An 8 year old has the right to leave home??

I'm really surprised that so many self-proclaimed small-government advocates are quick to jump on the bandwagon, just because it involves Muslims.

I personally don't believe she should be sent back...but...make a choice. Either you want the government making decisions involving your personal lives...or you don't.

 

[SavageEagle]

There is no evidence that her parents threatened to kill her, other than her own statements. Her parents statement:

"I love my daughter and I want her to come back to the family," he said, declining further comment. Do you really think he'd dishonor himself by lying publically so that he could later claim honor for killing her?


And none of this is the point. The point is that there is ZERO proof that these parents have done anything wrong. Hell no I don't believe them, and hell no I don't think they're fit to be parents. But it's a damn slippery slope to start taking kids away from parents based on zero evidence of anything but a religion. I say the government needs to give the kid back and stay out of it until they actually break the law.



I'm really surprised that so many self-proclaimed small-government advocates are quick to jump on the bandwagon, just because it involves Muslims.

Whoa there Nelly. Don't be so quick to trot off like that!

I'm sorry, but when a kid runs away and is serious fear of her life because she converted to Christianity I'd say that's a pretty good indicator for CPS to step in. That's one situation I'd EXPECT them to step in. Regardless their religion, regardless their ethinticity, regardless their race. Don't be so quick to paint with that broad brush.

I'm really surprised that so many self-proclaimed small-government advocates are quick to jump on the bandwagon, just because it involves Muslims.

That's a pretty broad brush you used there my friend. If you haven't listened to the recordings of her discussing all this then you REALLY should. Some people act like she's just doing this for attention. Personally I think it's God trying to wake some people up. Regardless of that, I really think she's honestly in fear of her life.

I hope that when she get's returned to OHIO CPS intercepts her and does a full investigation. Not the kind of meet and greet they did with me and my wife either. Sat us down and asked us some questions then the kids and let us go. If I'd REALLY been beating my kids I'd have gotten away scot free! Of course i don't beat my kids, but imagine how many people do abuse their kids, but are smooth enough talkers to fool CPS.

I really hope Ohio gets in on the stalling and delaying thing and puts her into Ohio's system until she turns 18.

 

[The Meach]

Every child has the right to leave their parents' home and engage in self-ownership, no matter their age. That the government does not recognize this right is a sign that something's wrong with the government, not the child.

I'd disagree. All Children have a Limited scale of rights and are under guardianship and are dependents of their parents (or other guardian) untill they reach the legal age of adulthood.

Now i think that we should back that age up to about 16. But you do have to have protected Ages of children.

But the law is the Law and these parents under the law have a right to their child, and to not have her brainwashed by some bible toting crazy.