Indiana Hunting Rifle Cartridge Change

[Hookeye]

I know a lack of sophistication does not always correlate with a lack of intelligence.
But a crude (and poor) argument doesn't get a bye for the sake of political correctness.

Do and vote for whatever the Hell you guys want. And reap what you sow.

With that, I am done

 

[philagothon]

This whole deal seems to be of 3 catagories:

1. People wanting to use their pet rifle for deer instead of just punching paper or clanging steel
2. People being too cheap to get a rifle under the current regs
3. Folks wanting more range in competition with other hunters.

I can actually respect such wants.

Even if I don't agree with them.

Telling me they are needs, and offering them to me as some form of help or enlightenment isn't being honest.

1. I get to use my "pet" rifle from the day the crop permits are issued until two weeks before bow season.
2. I usually use my muzzleloader for both firearms seasons. It's capable of less than 2 MOA and has hit 1 MOA several times at the range. With a max load of Blackhorn 209 it's plenty good enough for 200 yards.
3. During the firearms seasons I usually have hundreds of acres to myself.

None of your reasons fit me.

Taking as many deer as you want is a matter of management, not liberty. The state attempts to manage the herd through permits. They get to set numbers of permits and fees. Why should it matter to them what equipment I use to take the deer?

Some states allow any centerfire rifle, some set minimum energy or caliber requirements. Indiana has a minimum caliber of .243 for the crop permits. I'd be content to see that as the minimum for our modern firearms season. .243 is allowed in a rifle for crop permits and in a handgun for modern firearms season. Why not allow it in a rifle for modern firearms season?

Just because you grew up under draconian rules and were fed a bunch of bull as to why those rules were needed, doesn't mean you have to try feeding it to everyone else.

My personal motivators are:
1. the belief that responsible people ought to be able to make their own decisions on preferred weapon
2. a desire to see more people getting into hunting, with more accurate, more enjoyable firearms
3. I suppose the desire to use the same rifle year round for deer hunting. Though I love my muzzleloader, I would take my .243 if it were an option. (I suppose I'll give in on this one, but it's less about a pet rifle and more about my most accurate firearm).

Hookeye, I respect that you took the time to find a round that would shoot 1.5 MOA out of your shotgun. But you know as well as I do, that many of the Bubba types think you use rifled slugs in rifled barrels. They grab a box of slugs, roughly zero their scopes, and head off to the woods. They're not going to shoot 1.5 MOA. They're also not going to practice enough to get better because, whether they admit it or not, slugs aren't fun to shoot.

Most modern rifles are capable of 2 MOA or less with off the shelf ammo. The lighter recoil means Bubba might actually practice more. When Bubba realizes he can hit a paint can, tannerite, or shaving cream at 150-200 yards he might actually enjoy shooting his rifle. He might even be willing to invest the time to learn to shoot it better. Worst case, the mechanical accuracy of a modern rifle and off the shelf ammo is typically twice that of a slug gun. That difference is even more pronounced when Bubba isn't willing to find the perfect slug and just settles for whatever is on the shelf.

 

[hysteria]

I say make all calibers legal for hunting...



As long as they're fired from a single shot.

 

[Cerberus]

Hookeye is the leader of the "Hoosiers are too stupid" faction. Lots of opinion, not so many verifiable facts. He also has managed to get shot at a LOT. I have sat many, many, many seasons in Kentucky woods since I was a teen where you would hear rifles being fired and have yet to have anything come near me. Maybe us Kentucky rednecks are smarter after all.

 

[HOLY LAND]

Indiana Hunting Regulations can be frustrating at times when you want to go hunting with a more common rifle caliber. I want to have the law updated so we can use a broader range of calibers.

Hunting white tail deer all 30 caliber rifles should be legalized in Indiana. These modern 30 caliber cartridges are used nationwide year round for hunting, target practice and other activities. People are limited on how they are able to hunt with the way the law is now; we are not able to used our Grandpa’s old 3030 rifle or any other modern rifle because of the current law. 30 caliber riffles are used in a lot of states for hunting deer and I believe Indiana should allow us to have the same option. I feel it’s a shame that many people who move to Indiana and have more common caliber rifles are forbidden to use them for hunting and can only find themselves with the choice of shots guns or the limited selection listed in the DNR book.

It can cost more than most people have to build a gun around the offered legal calibers. One gentleman said, “My dad has hunted with a shotgun his whole life, and the recoil is getting painful in his older age. I would love to let him borrow my rifle that has much less recoil, because I am not able to afford to buy him a new one that happens to fit inside Indiana’s narrow caliber rules”. Indiana ground isn’t flat like a lot of people say, we have hills which would be backstops for the bullets and people in tree stands don’t fire up in the air and their backstop is the ground. Hunters on the ground position themselves near a deer trail so that they can find a deer in a controlled space so when they shoot they have a backstop so the bullet will be limited on travel and won’t hit anyone. As far as the arguments against using modern cartridges, any bullet is lethal. If a hunter is shooting without being certain they have an effective backstop then they are willing to risk of someone's life for a deer. Hunter education should cover these safety issues.


My argument for legalizing modern rifle calibers would be:

*Greater accuracy so you will have a cleaner kill. The animal will suffer less, and you will have less wounded deers running away only to have the hunter not retrieve the injured deer and shoot another. The hunter would have more control of his shot placement limiting damage to the deer’s vital organs.

*More people own the more common calibers, so you may have more people take up an interest in hunting, selling more licenses and rifles in Indiana increasing Indiana's revenue.

*Hunters from out of state can hunt here since the rifle's they already own can be used also increasing Indiana's revenue by selling the higher priced out of state licenses.

*Most modern rifle calibers have lower recoil than a shotgun, allowing older hunters to hunt longer. It may also reduce injuries of people falling out of stands due to the heavier recoil knocking them off balance in a tree stand.

Please sign my petition. If you have any suggestions please feel free to comment in the forum’s thread. Thank you.

Petition Indiana Hunting Rifle Cartridge Change

 

[HOLY LAND]

(Indiana should have rifle hunting of Whitetail deer)

2013 Rifle Deer Season Shane's Buck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annot...&feature=iv&src_vid=21pFIYC9SaQ&v=S1UqXaKLF8A

Rifle Deer Hunting 2013 Pennsylvania - Justin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrvBnTuwpeI&hd=1

Pennsylvania Rifle Season Hunt 2013 - Adam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annot...ure=iv&src_vid=TrvBnTuwpeI&v=21pFIYC9SaQ&hd=1

[h=1]25-20 WCF Rifle Deer Hunt 2013 Winchester Model 1892[/h]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7em6iumITdM&hd=1

 

[roadrunner681]

Indiana Hunting Regulations can be frustrating at times when you want to go hunting with a more common rifle caliber. I want to have the law updated so we can use a broader range of calibers.

Hunting white tail deer all 30 caliber rifles should be legalized in Indiana. These modern 30 caliber cartridges are used nationwide year round for hunting, target practice and other activities. People are limited on how they are able to hunt with the way the law is now; we are not able to used our Grandpa’s old 3030 rifle or any other modern rifle because of the current law. 30 caliber riffles are used in a lot of states for hunting deer and I believe Indiana should allow us to have the same option. I feel it’s a shame that many people who move to Indiana and have more common caliber rifles are forbidden to use them for hunting and can only find themselves with the choice of shots guns or the limited selection listed in the DNR book.

It can cost more than most people have to build a gun around the offered legal calibers. One gentleman said, “My dad has hunted with a shotgun his whole life, and the recoil is getting painful in his older age. I would love to let him borrow my rifle that has much less recoil, because I am not able to afford to buy him a new one that happens to fit inside Indiana’s narrow caliber rules”. Indiana ground isn’t flat like a lot of people say, we have hills which would be backstops for the bullets and people in tree stands don’t fire up in the air and their backstop is the ground. Hunters on the ground position themselves near a deer trail so that they can find a deer in a controlled space so when they shoot they have a backstop so the bullet will be limited on travel and won’t hit anyone. As far as the arguments against using modern cartridges, any bullet is lethal. If a hunter is shooting without being certain they have an effective backstop then they are willing to risk of someone's life for a deer. Hunter education should cover these safety issues.


My argument for legalizing modern rifle calibers would be:

*Greater accuracy so you will have a cleaner kill. The animal will suffer less, and you will have less wounded deers running away only to have the hunter not retrieve the injured deer and shoot another. The hunter would have more control of his shot placement limiting damage to the deer’s vital organs.

*More people own the more common calibers, so you may have more people take up an interest in hunting, selling more licenses and rifles in Indiana increasing Indiana's revenue.

*Hunters from out of state can hunt here since the rifle's they already own can be used also increasing Indiana's revenue by selling the higher priced out of state licenses.

*Most modern rifle calibers have lower recoil than a shotgun, allowing older hunters to hunt longer. It may also reduce injuries of people falling out of stands due to the heavier recoil knocking them off balance in a tree stand.

Please sign my petition. If you have any suggestions please feel free to comment in the forum’s thread. Thank you.

Petition Indiana Hunting Rifle Cartridge Change

ya my grandfather cant take the recoil from his 20 gauge slug gun any more, i think he want to take 243 out but of course the law.

 

[spaniel]

Whether intended as a safety mechanism or not, I believe it is one. I've been present when a 300WM was fired prone, impacting a plowed field 150 yards from the firing position, and ricocheting multiple 200 SMKs over someone almost 2 miles away. While I own such a gun for hunting out west, I am happy not to use it in Indiana and not having all of the other dozen hunters within half a mile of me doing so either. Opening morning in the woods south of me this year was WWIII, with shots being fired so fast they could not possibly be aimed. And a couple years ago the neighbor had slugs sent through the tree over his blind. It's just too crowded out there, in many places.

If most shots are <200 yards, muzzleloaders, pistol caliber carbines, and the relatively small number of novel rounds out there meeting the rules are adequate. Hunting in Indiana is much like southern Michigan where I hunted 15-odd years, I actually credit Indiana DNR with the wisdom to work out a reg that allows multiple shot weapons that are not shotguns. Growing up I could not afford an accurate shotgun so I had to use a $100 muzzleloader in regular firearm season

I read a quote from the DNR somewhere stating that they went the route of the current regs to keep from being endlessly petitioned to add someone's pet cartridge to the list of approved cartridges. Yes, it leaves out some equivalent options, but from reading back through half of this thread it is clear that they will irritate half of the people no matter what they do.

Happy hunting.

 

[HOLY LAND]

ya my grandfather cant take the recoil from his 20 gauge slug gun any more, i think he want to take 243 out but of course the law.

I know what you mean he should be able to go out and use a rifle with lower recoil if its easier for him because its sad when our relatives or other hunters are no longer able to go out the way they use to.

 

[Cerberus]

Whether intended as a safety mechanism or not, I believe it is one. I've been present when a 300WM was fired prone, impacting a plowed field 150 yards from the firing position, and ricocheting multiple 200 SMKs over someone almost 2 miles away. While I own such a gun for hunting out west, I am happy not to use it in Indiana and not having all of the other dozen hunters within half a mile of me doing so either. Opening morning in the woods south of me this year was WWIII, with shots being fired so fast they could not possibly be aimed. And a couple years ago the neighbor had slugs sent through the tree over his blind. It's just too crowded out there, in many places.

If most shots are <200 yards, muzzleloaders, pistol caliber carbines, and the relatively small number of novel rounds out there meeting the rules are adequate. Hunting in Indiana is much like southern Michigan where I hunted 15-odd years, I actually credit Indiana DNR with the wisdom to work out a reg that allows multiple shot weapons that are not shotguns. Growing up I could not afford an accurate shotgun so I had to use a $100 muzzleloader in regular firearm season

I read a quote from the DNR somewhere stating that they went the route of the current regs to keep from being endlessly petitioned to add someone's pet cartridge to the list of approved cartridges. Yes, it leaves out some equivalent options, but from reading back through half of this thread it is clear that they will irritate half of the people no matter what they do.

Happy hunting.

More anecdotal "evidence" presented by the Fudd crowd. Can you provide any verifiable data to your claims? You might as well get used to rifles being used because I've not met too many people under 50 that believe for one minute the "safety" claims, in fact they have been proven erroneous for a few years now.

Money talks and BS walks. Maybe it is time to vote with our wallets. Boycott the gun season until they change the regs. They will take notice when gun licence sales drop sharply.

 

[Paul30]

Glad you are done, cause that's a whole lotta negativity there.

I know a lack of sophistication does not always correlate with a lack of intelligence.
But a crude (and poor) argument doesn't get a bye for the sake of political correctness.

Do and vote for whatever the Hell you guys want. And reap what you sow.

With that, I am done

Glad you are done, cause that is a whole lot of negativity aimed at one guy trying to make things better for everyone.

You state just because it's restricted doesn't mean it should not be, the reverse is also true. Just because it is restricted, doesn't mean it should be. The petition makes perfect sense, and almost every other state that allows hunting allows way more calibers than the 30. Every state that borders ours allows these calibers, and are almost identical in their landscapes. Geography does not determine a safe shot, the shooter does. I agree with a few posts here that many hunters are not safe to be hunting. I have heard people discuss some scary hunting tactics, and witnessed some confessions of some who are not safe at all. The poster who worries due to people shooting onto their property from the surrounding property, I feel for you. I have seen so much crazy shooting in my time every time I hear shots fired I wonder if they are going to come through my home. I know it would not matter if it were a rifle, pistol, muzzle loader, etc. They are all capable of being lethal. One neighbor of mine a mile away was telling me once his wife was hanging cloths out to dry and bullets were whizzing by. Apparently the young fellows next door who were using a brush pile for a back stop to target shoot with their 44 magnum pistol were not aware it would penetrate a pile of sticks. This same guy who was complaining about his neighbors (and rightfully so) was telling me he did not want rifles legalized because if you shoot one on a hill the bullet would just keep on going. I asked him if he was aware what was within bullet range of his shotgun slug past the hill he was shooing over if he missed. I explained you simply do not shoot unless you have an adequate backstop if you miss. He just shrugged and said "Well if I had to wait for a shot where I had a back stop I would never get a deer". Ignorance is curable, but you can't fix stupid.

In summary, the caliber does not make it more dangerous, if anything it should make it safer. Education makes the hunting sport safer, but if the hunter can't get deer fever under control then it can very likely get dangerous no matter what firearm they are using to hunt.

Petition sounds like a good idea to get the ball rolling, I'm signing it after I post this.

 

[HOLY LAND]

Buck! Buck! Buck! The Excitement Of Deer Hunting With Kids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p4Vx3zb9eg&hd=1

[h=1]2013 NY Gun Deer Hunting[/h]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5beRH3z7WQ&hd=1

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just take your rifle out to the woods?

 

[spaniel]

More anecdotal "evidence" presented by the Fudd crowd. Can you provide any verifiable data to your claims? You might as well get used to rifles being used because I've not met too many people under 50 that believe for one minute the "safety" claims, in fact they have been proven erroneous for a few years now.

Money talks and BS walks. Maybe it is time to vote with our wallets. Boycott the gun season until they change the regs. They will take notice when gun licence sales drop sharply.

If you re-read my post I did provide actual evidence as to the distance even a ricochet from a larger rifle can travel. I am also under 50, and also unmoved by anyone whose only means to reply to a post they don't agree with is to insult the poster. Reasonable people can disagree reasonably.

 

[avboiler11]

In 2012, Indiana hunters harvested 136,248 whitetail deer; Kentucky hunters harvested 131,388.

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-2012_Deer_Season_Summary.pdf
Record harvest in 2012-13 for Kentucky deer hunters > Buckmasters > View All Articles

Indiana's population is about 49% higher than Kentucky with roughly 10% less area.

The interwebs has an estimate for Kentucky's whitetail herd between 750,000-900,000 and I have not been able to find an estimate for Indiana.

EDIT: interesting article here http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/big-buck-zone/2013/05/new-whitetail-scale

 

[Cerberus]

If you re-read my post I did provide actual evidence as to the distance even a ricochet from a larger rifle can travel. I am also under 50, and also unmoved by anyone whose only means to reply to a post they don't agree with is to insult the poster. Reasonable people can disagree reasonably.

No you provided hearsay. You did not provide a single shred of credible evidense. Like actual surveys and photographs. At least my side can provide an actual government study on this very subject. I bet you shotguners would scream long and loud the minute the rest of us start demanding that ONLY smoothbore singleshots with bead sights be used to hunt deer. That is in essence what the Fudd crowd IS doing to rifles. You impose your draconian attitudes on the rest of us.

 

[spaniel]

No you provided hearsay. You did not provide a single shred of credible evidense. Like actual surveys and photographs. At least my side can provide an actual government study on this very subject. I bet you shotguners would scream long and loud the minute the rest of us start demanding that ONLY smoothbore singleshots with bead sights be used to hunt deer. That is in essence what the Fudd crowd IS doing to rifles. You impose your draconian attitudes on the rest of us.

Surveys and photos are not proof; surveys are fraught with bias and photos can be altered and taken selectively. A single government study is also proof of nothing; was it peer reviewed?

I am also not a "shotgunner", I have not hunted deer with a shotgun in 20 years. I am a reasonable person with experience with multiple weapon types who is willing to have a reasonable discussion on the issue. Perhaps, lacking a willingness to insult people I know nothing about short of a simple difference of opinion, I am unmatched in this debate.

As an aside, you misspelled both "shotguners" and "evidense". Combining both a propensity to rely on insults, and poor grammar, I'm not inclined to consider your opinion with much weight.

As another aside, your assertion that demanding smoothbore singleshots with bead sights be used vs rifled barrels and appropriate sights is ridiculous on its face. Within 200 yards, where people claim the majority of shots are made, similar sighting systems on a rifle matching the current Indiana rules and a 30-06 yield indistinguishable results.

 

[Cerberus]

Surveys and photos are not proof; surveys are fraught with bias and photos can be altered and taken selectively. A single government study is also proof of nothing; was it peer reviewed?

I am also not a "shotgunner", I have not hunted deer with a shotgun in 20 years. I am a reasonable person with experience with multiple weapon types who is willing to have a reasonable discussion on the issue. Perhaps, lacking a willingness to insult people I know nothing about short of a simple difference of opinion, I am unmatched in this debate.

As an aside, you misspelled both "shotguners" and "evidense". Combining both a propensity to rely on insults, and poor grammar, I'm not inclined to consider your opinion with much weight.

As another aside, your assertion that demanding smoothbore singleshots with bead sights be used vs rifled barrels and appropriate sights is ridiculous on its face. DUH IT WAS MEANT TO BE Within 200 yards, where people claim the majority of shots are made, similar sighting systems on a rifle matching the current Indiana rules and a 30-06 yield indistinguishable results.

Never claimed to be a speller, but you seem to be a grammer nazi. If surveys and photo evidence and studies be "fraught with bias" then just how is hearsay not so. Has your opinion been peer reviewed? You certainly are starting to fit right in with the "Hoosiers are stupid faction" with the arrogant assumption that a couple of mispelled words and Southern grammer are signs of stupidity. You are starting to fit the definition of a$$hat. And BTW, if my assertion about smoothbore singleshots is ridiculous on it's face, then what does that make the anti-rifle arrument? It's the same thing, just reversed.

 

[Enkrypter]

I have created this petition to change gun cartridge change for hunting in Indiana.
Please take some time and look into my petition and help me spread it around!

Petition Indiana Hunting Rifle Cartridge Change

I am a hunter and have been hunting for years here in Indiana, like most people I started hunting with my father. I love hunting because it's a way for me to get away from city life and relax. Recently, it has become an option for hunters in Indiana to use rifles, but the problem is rifles cartridges that we are allowed to use are very uncommon rounds for rifles. These cartridges are really pistol rounds and hunters could converted a normal rifle to a 358 Hoosier round. Hunters do not have enough options for hunting with common hunting rifle rounds. Many hunters need to have a custom gun made to use the cartridge that is allowed by the state of Indiana. It would be nice if we could bring out our grand fathers 1903 Springfield 30-06 and just go hunting or even use a brand new one off the shelf.

The rules for what we are able to use are both confusing and hard to
understand. It sounds as though we have a lot of choices in rifle cartridges but in reality we do not. I do not want to drive all the way to Kentucky in order to hunt with a 30-06, .308, or even a 7.62x54r. The states allowing rifle hunting are North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, West Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Florida, and Michigan.
I would like to expand the hunting laws to allow rifles that are more common calibers for rifle hunting: .44 Mag, 30-30, .223, .243, 300 AAC BLK, 300 Whisper, 7mm-08, .308, 7.62x39, 7.62x54r, and 30-06. If you agree with what I request, please sign my petition. This petition will then be directed to Governor: Mike Pence, DNR Director: Cameron F. Clark, and Legislative Director: Chris Smith so we can make this change for the next hunting season 2013-2014.

In to comparison Indiana's Max Case length is 1.8 inches:

*.308 is 2.015" or 0.215" above current max
*7.62x54r is 2.115" or 0.315" above current max
*.30-06 is 2.494" or 0.694" above current max

These are the rules that the state of Indiana allows:

*Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger;

*have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches

*and have a maximum case length of 1.8 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms and special antler less seasons.

Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express, .500 S&W, .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf.

I'd like to also see big bore air rifles added for deer hunting. Other states allow it. Air rifles are less lethal then rifles when a shot goes stray, and they are more than capable of killing deer at optimal common hunting distances.

 

[spaniel]

Never claimed to be a speller, but you seem to be a grammer nazi. If surveys and photo evidence and studies be "fraught with bias" then just how is hearsay not so. Has your opinion been peer reviewed? You certainly are starting to fit right in with the "Hoosiers are stupid faction" with the arrogant assumption that a couple of mispelled words and Southern grammer are signs of stupidity. You are starting to fit the definition of a$$hat. And BTW, if my assertion about smoothbore singleshots is ridiculous on it's face, then what does that make the anti-rifle arrument? It's the same thing, just reversed.

I'm not a grammar nazi, but when you couple that with a need to go straight to insults on anyone who doesn't agree with their "arrument", 1+1=2. I don't know that you're stupid, but I am not at all impressed by your personality and therefore your opinion, by extension, holds little weight with me.

If you had a sound argument, you could support it with more than insults.

Welcome to the ignore list. I hope this thread is an outlier here.

Good luck with your petition. If this is the persona with which you plan to approach the DNR, I don't see the regs changing anytime soon.

 

[HOLY LAND]

Merry Christmas Everyone. God & Jesus Bless You and Your Families.

I want the love of Christ to enter your lives and hearts now and forever and that we always remember what Christmas is about with the Birth of Jesus Christ God's Gift to man. (John 3:16)