Oh, they can boot you for not following facility rules, but that is far cry from it automatically being criminal.
Once again, it all comes down to the wording of the signage.
Oh, they can boot you for not following facility rules, but that is far cry from it automatically being criminal.
Once again, it all comes down to the wording of the signage.
Read both threads. There is no agreement, although I would be cautious.
Indiana's Crim Trespass statute has an inherent contradiction in it which I don't know has been resolved in the caselaw. The mens rea for the statute is "knowingly or intentionally" yet the definition of "denied entry" seems to imply it can be negligent or even strict liability completely without knowledge.
A general principle of criminal law is that any non- malum in se law requires a mens read of at least recklessness. I seem to recall that this has been held to be a federal constitutional requirement. I am dubious that Indiana's definition of "denied entry" is actually constitutional as it does not even require that all public entrances be posted. Additionally, there is ample Indiana caselaw that mens rea applies to all elements of a crime.
As such, I am skeptical that a conviction for criminal trespass can be sustained without proof of actual knowledge of denial of entry. That is not to say, that knowledge won't be inferrable if you walk past a big sign, but that is a horse of a different color from what the statute now says. I will have to see if there is any caselaw on it next time I get the chance.
A gun buster sign does not deny entry to any person. At its most absolutist, it denies entry of inanimate objects, not persons. Plus, it's a little non-verbal. Even "No Weapons" doesn't deny entry to persons, but to inanimate objects which fall into the class of "weapons". Hence, unless there's a sign which states explicitly "Lex Concord is denied entry to these premises", it doesn't matter if there's a gun buster and you're armed and walk in anyway. They have to use (1) to deny you entry with specificity.Quite true. The sign is in a small vestibule with heavy doors...if someone held the door for you, it could happen.
That said, I don't know that proof of an individual having seen the sign is relevant here. The IC in question states, regarding criminal trespass:
"A person has been denied entry under subdivision (a)(1) of this section when the person has been denied entry by means of:
(1) personal communication, oral or written;
(2) posting or exhibiting a notice at the main entrance in a
manner that is either prescribed by law or likely to come to the
attention of the public; or
(3) a hearing authority or court order under IC"
I think the questions are 1) Would the sign qualify as a trespassing sign? and, if so, 2) is the sign "likely to come to the attention of the public"
Follow Up:
Tried to get the friend's name, or case number out of him, he said it was none of my business lol
Follow Up:
Tried to get the friend's name, or case number out of him, he said it was none of my business lol
Follow Up:
Tried to get the friend's name, or case number out of him, he said it was none of my business lol
A gun buster sign does not deny entry to any person. At its most absolutist, it denies entry of inanimate objects, not persons. Plus, it's a little non-verbal. Even "No Weapons" doesn't deny entry to persons, but to inanimate objects which fall into the class of "weapons". Hence, unless there's a sign which states explicitly "Lex Concord is denied entry to these premises", it doesn't matter if there's a gun buster and you're armed and walk in anyway. They have to use (1) to deny you entry with specificity.
What If -
You have already been told to leave because of carrying an hour, day or month before and the same guy just spotted you there again. Can he now call the cops for trespassing?
Why would you come back to such business anyway?
Okay. After doing a bit more web-sleuthing, I am feeling older due to my failed memory. It is very likely the sign to which I referred upthread looks like the one below which, in my opinion, would be a mere "gun buster" sign as CathyInBlue suggested.
That said, the hypothetical question is still intriguing: could a sign denying entry to persons behaving in a certain manner ever be construed to have the impact of a trespass sign.
Follow Up:
Tried to get the friend's name, or case number out of him, he said it was none of my business lol
The sign would be hard to miss by a sighted person.
What If -
You have already been told to leave because of carrying an hour, day or month before and the same guy just spotted you there again. Can he now call the cops for trespassing?