if some one breaks in leagally what do you have to do

[flagtag]

I've always wondered what you should do if you hear "Police... we have a warrant". If I was the badguy in someone else's home, and I sensed there would be a confrontation, that's what I'd do.

I would say: "Ok. I'm talking to the police department (911, dispatch, whatever) right now. If they confirm that you are indeed who and what you say you are, I will stand down and you may proceed safely. Otherwise, stay where you are and wait for the "real" police."

 

[BAS2686]

Thats a good point. If it is the police your not likely to survive the encounter if you use a firearm. The police enter expecting a confrontation and will definetly return fire. If you do survive your injuries you would be charge and have a tough time not spending a lot of time with your new best friend "Bubba". If it is a home envasion robbery the fact that they are shouting "police....search warrant" probably indicates they are not looking to shoot anybody otherwise why not go in and just shoot.
It seems to me your chances of surviving the incident are much better cooperating if you they tell you they are the police with a warrant.

 

[rhino]

First, drywall won't stop much of anything. Several sheets of it won't stop much of anything.

The pine board testing in the Box o' Truth article below is somewhat misleading. Read some tests done with sheets of plywood sometime. It's more likely to be encountered in a wall and 5.56mm penetrates very poorly through it compared to 9mm or .45ACP, much less something like .308.

You should read or read excerpts from:

Roberts, G.K., "The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared With 12 ga. Shtoguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Stimulant," Wound Ballistics Review, 3 (4):16-28, 1998.

​

How many boards something penetrates may be interesting, but Dr. Roberts (and a lot of others) have done far more systematic, comprehensive testing. The most applicable testing was firing through drywall first, then checking penetration in ballistic gelatin (the closets simulant of human tissue). After firing through the drywall, the 5.56x45mm/.223 in all flavors had far less penetration in the gelatin than any of the 9mm or .45ACP rounds tested. From that Dr. Roberts and others infer that after going through building materials, the 5.56 round is far less likely to cause serious or lethal injuries than defensive handgun rounds.

It's much like firing an AR into a car door. It may go through the sheet metal, but it may not even penetrate cardboard on the other side of the door in some case it has so little momentum and energy remaining.

You have to make your own decisions, but my conclusion is that 5.56x45mm is the least likely (when compared to centerfire pistols, bigger rifle calibers, shotgun slugs, and buckshot) to cause any real problems after going through a wall. It's also the best at penetrating body armor, and causes wounds with bigger permanent wound channels than a 12ga slug at close range (when it yaws and then fragments). That makes it an ideal choice for home defense.

The same reasons why it's ideal for home defense corresponds to one reason why it has serious limitations for use in combat: 5.56mm sucks as penetrating intermediate barries. It's great through soft body armor, but it's puny on vehicle skins, walls, etc. That's the primary advantage of 7.62x51mm for such applications, because it penetrates through "stuff" better.

Springfield = 1911 or M1A?

All things being equal, I think an AR is the last firearm I'd use in a home defense situation, unless that Springfield is an M1A? .223 or .308 rounds would probably not be a welcome visitor to my neighbor's house when they go through the drywall and siding of my house.
The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 1*

* I have 3 or 4 sheets of 1/2" drywall in my garage if anyone wants to recreate this kind of thing.

 

[rhino]

Actually, this is a quite relevant question. As many self defense experts will soon chime in (Where are you Rhino?)
With the advent of home invaders using body armor with more regularity it is more and more common to hear those professionals suggest the use of an AR or AK or some other body armor defeating firearm to stop a home invader and protect your family and home.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mike, but the "expert" word makes me uncomfortable! I'm a student who is always learning, though.

As Jay indicated and supported with his quote from the Indiana Code, deadly force is deadly force according to the law. If you're justified in using it, it doesn't matter what you use. Also note from the law that if you are justified in using deadly force, you can't be prosecuted or sued (at least effectively). The latter part was the true gem of the current law, and the only real "addition," as the other parts are more along the lines of clarification. By that I mean, before the so-called "castle doctrine" was added to the IC, there was no duty to retreat in Indiana. The "new" just made it explicit, which is a good and comforting thing, but I think the immunity from civil suits afterward was the real boon to anyone who is forced to defend themself or someone else.

Naturally, I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and I didn't even stay at Holiday Inn Express last night. So take my commentary for what it's worth, question it, and verify!

 

[Sailor]

Actually, this is a quite relevant question. As many self defense experts will soon chime in (Where are you Rhino?)
With the advent of home invaders using body armor with more regularity it is more and more common to hear those professionals suggest the use of an AR or AK or some other body armor defeating firearm to stop a home invader and protect your family and home.


Oh and for whomever wants to recreate the "Box-"O"-truth" tests I m certainly up for a day at the range!

Try you test with a range car. I guarantee you will look at vehicles as cover much differently.

 

[BAS2686]

Well I'm new to this site and not looking to pick a fight but Ive seen many crimes scenes where shotgun "pellets" have either lodged in the drywall or did not do any damage beyond it. Anyway, it would be extremely rare for a shotgun discharged from inside your house to penetrate the wall and create damage on the otherside.

 

[waloidian]

ive read enough that in a house situation, you dont need more than 4 shot. The spread is so small, that even 7.5 shot would do the job. 00 has a good chance of going through windows and drywall and end up having enough force to hurt someone. Even with 4 shot, fired into gelatins at HD distances, all the shot and even the wad makes serious penetration. Plenty enough to hamburger a body. 4 shot is my choice, but everyone has their own opinons on this matter. And despite the notion that a shotgun doesnt take skill in a HD situation, think again, because the spread is so tight, you beter be able to aim it right. Back to the OP, I think its important to know that you dont want to get in a fire fight with real police. As others mentioned, they are going to have no mercy on you, and they will have more firepower than you. We cant be ready for 100% of the scenarios out there, but making your own plans is "half the battle"!

 

[rhino]

The problem with birdshot is that it won't reliably penetrate deeply enough on a person to do adequate damage to stop them quickly, regardless of the size of the pattern. If they're wearing heavy clothing, especially leather, it's even less likely to do the job. Shotgun experts recommend buckshot or slugs for a reason. Overpenetration is a secondary concern to getting adequate penetration in the assailant.

 

[danielocean03]

it doesnt matter what you use. looking at the classifieds got me to thinking...it would be awesome to use a flame thrower, but then you would probably burn down your house

We can work something out on that flamethrower! Come on, you know it'd be the best HD weapon ever!

 

[Panama]

I think I am correct here.
3 inch magnum 00 buck - 12 pellets per rounds - 9 rounds = "108" 32 caliber pellets out there in the atmosphere directed at the bad guy =
THREAT ELIMINATION!

 

[danielocean03]

I think I am correct here.
3 inch magnum 00 buck - 12 pellets per rounds - 9 rounds = "108" 32 caliber pellets out there in the atmosphere directed at the bad guy =
THREAT ELIMINATION!

Rep'd in agreement, although my Winchester Super X 00 buckshot 3'' magnum shells filling up my Supernova's mag tube and extension right now are 15 pellets. I'll take my chances with that in most HD scenarios.

 

[Steve]

Gotta go with the pump shotgun in this scenerio. 2 reasons. 1st, aint nothing in the world that sounds like a 12 ga being racked inside a house at 2:00 in the mornng to command instant respect. If the BG has any brains at all, when he hears that sound, his attention goes from "What can I take out of here" to "How the h#&& do I get out of here!!" 2nd reason, if he's stupid enough to continue coming on, well let's just say he don't need to be adding to the gene pool anyway.

Seriously, the second to last thing I ever want to do is shoot someone. The sound of a round being chambered in a 12 ga will sent 99% of BG's packing and I don't have to do anything else. However, the last thing I ever want to do is get shot or stabbed or my family get harmed because I didn't defend us. In that scenerio, I have absolutely no problem doing what needs to be done.

 

[waloidian]

even 8 shot fired at someone 9 times is going to kill them no problem. If you dont have any worries of hitting neighbors or even more likely, your own family in a room close to the BG, then youre lucky to shoot 00 confidently.

 

[Turtle]

Shoot Shoot Shoot! Call police!....... place knife in hands for insurance... just kidding.

 

[csaws]

Always make sure your the first one to call the police also. That more often than not will show you are the victim and not the aggressor.

Deadly force is deadly force...rather it be from a car, baseball bat, knife or gun you still end up with the possibility of killing.

As an FYI, I am not saying you are wrong but it did get me thinking about his point of view...

Only one problem with this and Massad Ayoob covered it one day on Personal Defense TV. If you calls the cops saying there is a man in your house with a gun and the cop sees a man in the house with a gun (maybe you) it maybe the last time you call the cops.

 

[absrio]

At the same token if the police show up before you or the suspect have called they may not see the knife in the suspects hand and only see you pointing a gun at the suspect. You are now in tunnel vision and do not hear or see the police and the police will see you as the bad guy.

Yep its a tough split second decision that has to be made. Me I want dispatch to know where I am and what I am wearing along with what the suspect/suspects are wearing.

 

[SigSense]

Aim, center mass, pull trigger....continue pulling trigger until threat is neutralized. It's quite a simple concept.

 

[JBrockman]

With the new administration coming into play i.e. Barack Hussein Obama and the Clinton crowd make sure that when the police do arrive there is only one story for them to take. And the least amount of shots required to do the job is better on you! Dont drop the clip, reload and empty again might not look good to the investigative team.
Remember when talking to the police no matter what "I really did not want to shoot the guy but I was afraid for my wife and kids lives and I kept yelling and he kept coming! And look really distraught and sad!!!!!!!!

 

[indytechnerd]

First, drywall won't stop much of anything. Several sheets of it won't stop much of anything.

The pine board testing in the Box o' Truth article below is somewhat misleading. Read some tests done with sheets of plywood sometime. It's more likely to be encountered in a wall and 5.56mm penetrates very poorly through it compared to 9mm or .45ACP, much less something like .308.
...(snip)

The BoT videos were all shot at a distance of 12'. It's at least half again that for what my initial shot would be from my bedroom door. I think that many of us would have greater than 12' to target, so YMMV based on the Box o' Truth. I don't have any plywood, but there are still a ton of houses being built around here that throw out scraps, so it could be acquired cheaply.

My offer of providing ~3 full sheets of 1/2" drywall to the range stands. It's only taking up space in my garage. Only requirement is I get to help do the testing

 

[squarepeg]

I see a few comments about the "sound" of a racking shotgun and how it might put fear into the bad guy. Are you the same people who carry a gun without a round chambered? I don't own a shotgun, but I would imagine that I would have it loaded and ready to rock, just like my defense pistol. What guarantee do you have that you will have time to pick up and rack?