I need help from the M1 carbine gurus

[Mad Anthony Wayne]

A buddy owed me $1500, I let him pay me with $1000 cash and this M1 carbine. I've read a little about them, but could use some help identifying what I have and possible value. The receiver is "Standard Products" and the serial number is 2,22X,XXX. Here are some pics of the other markings...

First, the left side of the butt stock

Now, the right side of the butt stock has some sort of cartouche...

Here are the handguard markings

The recoil plate has an "SW"

The op rod slide has an "S" marked in it.

The trigger group housing is "Inland"

The hammer has a "W"

The mag catch has an "SW"

The bolt is a flat bolt and has "52S" stamped on it

The barrel is marked "Underwood, 3-44, and has the flaming bomb. For the life of me I couldn't get a pic that showed the faint markings well so didn't include a pic. The bore is very shiny and has nice lands and grooves.

It has the windage and elevation rear sight and no sign of any bayonet lug...no sign that a bayonet lug band had ever been attached either.

The best part (I think) is that I tore this rifle completely down and searched the entire rifle thoroughly with my bore light and found absolutley no import marks. The stock, the metal, and the bore are in uncanny nice condition, and I took it to the range yesterday and once sighted in it was VERY accurate at 50 yards. Any information on the history, or possible value would be greatly appreciated!

 

[r3126]

In my opinion, a good investment of $500. Standard Products is one of the more desirable of the M1 carbines due to the low production numbers. 247,155 of 2,299,037 produced. The rifle probably underwent at least one rebuild and perhaps more so the various production names on parts is expected.

Now, a bit about your carbine:

Produced about April to June of 1944. The Underwood barrel is probably correct and was the most common, as there were 5 or 6 different barrels assembled on the SP receiver and the 3-44 date matches with the production date.

The recoil plate was made by Star Watch Company and to be "as produced (ap)" it should be ".U." or "SWI". The operating slide was a Standard Products item and is correct. The trigger housing is an Inland (a division of General Motors) - should be an "ST" or "BE-B" to be correct. The hammer is by Winchester and should be a "SW" "SS" or "SHTE" to be correct. The magazine catch is Star Watch and is correct. The bolt is a Standard Product and is correct. The stock is by Hillerich&Bradsby Company - the cartouche appears to be correct. However, looking at the picture of the rifle, the stock appears to be a Type 3 and should be a Type 2 to be correct. The handguard is marked correctly to be on the rifle.

Other observations. The Type 3 safety appears to be correct. It should be unmarked or marked "SW" or "SM-B" to be correct. The barrel band appears to be a Type 1 or 1A and should be a Type 2 (unmarked) to be correct.

It is a fine rifle! I commend for your reading, "U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production" by Craig Riesch. This is a good reference for the rifle.

If you should choose to part with the rifle in the future, I would like to be able to deal with you. I have a small (7) carbine collection.

 

[edporch]

Another good book on M1 Carbines is:
War Baby! The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbine, Vol. 1 [Hardcover]

Larry L. Ruth

• Hardcover: 495 pages
• Publisher: Collector Grade Publications; Limited 1st edition (December 1992)
• Language: English
• ISBN-10: 0889351171
• ISBN-13: 978-0889351172

 

[r3126]

Another good book on M1 Carbines is:
War Baby! The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbine, Vol. 1 [Hardcover]

Larry L. Ruth

• Hardcover: 495 pages
• Publisher: Collector Grade Publications; Limited 1st edition (December 1992)
• Language: English
• ISBN-10: 0889351171
• ISBN-13: 978-0889351172

Yes! Expensive though.

 

[03A3]

I am not a guru by any means, but from your pics and what little I do know I'd say that you did very well on that deal.

 

[Expat]

$500 is a good buy right now. Ever since the CMP ran out, the prices that I have seen have jumped higher.

 

[HandK]

Along with what you have already been told about your gun, It does not have a bayonet lug on it!! this makes it worth even more, there are few guns that live today that have not been though an armory and had the lug attached to it!! so don't let anyone talk you out of this with out further checking it's history!! I think you got a good one!!

 

[03A3]

Good point HandK.

 

[Mad Anthony Wayne]

Hey guys, thanks a million for the quality information. I don't think I'm gonna ever get rid of this one. Its in super nice condition, and Im really enjoying the history behind this rifle! I may have to get an M1 Garand, bolt action Springfield, and reproduction Thompson to go with it now. :-) Any ideas where I can get a sling and oiler, along with a butt stock mag pouch? I would like to keep it authentic unless the prices are sky high, in which case a reproduction would be fine. Of course, the cheaper the better. Lol!

 

[HandK]

Hey guys, thanks a million for the quality information. I don't think I'm gonna ever get rid of this one. Its in super nice condition, and Im really enjoying the history behind this rifle! I may have to get an M1 Garand, bolt action Springfield, and reproduction Thompson to go with it now. :-) Any ideas where I can get a sling and oiler, along with a butt stock mag pouch? I would like to keep it authentic unless the prices are sky high, in which case a reproduction would be fine. Of course, the cheaper the better. Lol!

Just so you know the ones without the bayonet lug are very rare!! and highly collectible!!! I mean Highly collectible! it could be worth 3 to 4 times the amount of money he gave it to you for!! so do your home work on that one!!! hope this helps!!

 

[Mad Anthony Wayne]

Just so you know the ones without the bayonet lug are very rare!! and highly collectible!!! I mean Highly collectible! it could be worth 3 to 4 times the amount of money he gave it to you for!! so do your home work on that one!!! hope this helps!!

Really?...Thats awesome news! Im definitaley going to have to do a lot more research. Thanks again!

 

[Mayday671]

Really?...Thats awesome news! Im definitaley going to have to do a lot more research. Thanks again!

They are only of value if original, which is hard to determine. You can buy barrel bands without the bayonet lug but it doesnt increase the value. I have a Rockola which has all Rockola parts but no way to confirm they are orginal and they are not. The carbines served in WW2 then reworked and served in Korea, some made it to Vietnam, and then all over the world with foreign militaries. Most people pay an amount based on the manufacturer on the receiver. You may be able to find records on the serial number and find out the rifles original configuration. The Rockola I have had the bayonet lug, the late model bolt, and the windage sight. My grandfather wanted it set up just the same as the Rockola he was issued and carried throughout WW2. We searched until we found a Rockola early bolt, early barrel band minus bayonet lug, and the early simple flip sight, oh and early safety selector. Anyhow $500 is a good deal, I recently sold a Iver Johnson reproduction carbine for $500 last year. It only had 200 rounds through it and was made with mil spec parts but made in the 80's. Great deal. 5,510,000 M1's were made, 150,000 M1A's were made (Paratrooper), 570,000 M2's were made, and finally 2,100 M3's were made. Inland made 2,392,388, Winchester made 865,394, Underwood Elliot Fisher made 545,616, Rockola made 228,500, Quality Hardware and Machine made 359,666, Irwin Pederson Arms made 3,542, National Postal Meter made 413,017, Commercial Controls Corp made 239, Standard Products Company made 247,155, Saginaw Steering Gears Division General Motors Company made 293,592 (Saginaw Michigan), Saginaw Steering Gears Division General Motors Company made 223,620 (Grand Rapids, Michigan), International Business Machines made 346,500. Standard products only made 4 parts in house. Hope that helps.

The following are the serial numbers the Military assigned to each manufacturer. Notice it shows over 8 million made. Ive been told that not all serial numbers were made by each company. Use Rockola for example, they made roughly 228,500 but were assigned 348,496 serial numbers.


Numerical Order

Start End Assigned Prime Contractor
1 5 Inland
6 10 Winchester
11 999,999 Inland
1,000,000 1,349,999 Winchester
1,350,000 1,449,999 Underwood
1,450,000 1,549,999 National Postal Meter
1,550,000 1,662,519 Quality Hardware
1,662,520 1,762,519 Rock-Ola
1,762,520 1,875,039 Irwin-Pedersen/Saginaw (S'G')
1,875,040 1,937,519 Quality Hardware
1,937,520 1,982,519 National Postal Meter
1,982,520 2,352,519 Standard Products
2,352,520 2,912,519 Underwood
2,912,520 3,212,519 Inland
3,212,520 3,250,019 Irwin-Pedersen/Saginaw (S'G')
3,250,020 3,651,519 Saginaw (S.G.)
3,651,520 4,009,999 IBM
4,010,000 4,074,999 Underwood
4,075,000 4,075,009 Winchester
4,075,010 4,432,099 National Postal Meter
4,432,100 4,532,099 Quality Hardware
4,532,100 4,632,099 Rock-Ola
4,632,100 4,879,525 Quality Hardware
4,879,526 5,549,921 Inland
5,549,922 5,834,618 Winchester
5,834,619 6,071,188 Saginaw (S.G.)
6,071,189 6,099,688 Rock-Ola
6,099,689 6,199,688 Underwood
6,199,689 6,219,688 Rock-Ola
6,219,689 6,449,867 Inland
6,449,868 6,629,883 Winchester
6,629,884 7,234,883 Inland
7,234,884 7,369,660 Winchester
7,369,661 8,069,660 Inland

 

[CandRFan]

Nice Carbine! Looks to be in beautiful condition and you didn't mention any other stock markings that would indicate an arsenal rebuild.

I don't think some of your parts are "correct" for that maker...for example according to Riesch the hammer in your Carbine should be marked SW or SS SHTE. Your trigger housing shouldn't be an Inland either and Inland housings, according to what I've researched, weren't used on any Carbine other than Inland. The rear site looks to be correct as a milled type two and just from looking at the barrel band it would be appear to be a type two and correct. The barrel band was usually one of the parts that would be swapped to the type three (with the bayo lug) during a rebuild.

It's definitely worth $500 though and is a desireable example of the M1 Carbine. As others have said, there are plenty of books out there that break down just about every piece and part and place those parts by serial number into each respective Carbine maker. The book that I used to try and identify what parts "should" be in your Carbine is Craig Riesch "US M1 Cabines, Wartime Production" and if you're interested in researching your Carbine you should pick up a copy.

I happen to have an extra copy of Riesch's book if you're interested. Say, $10? Shoot me a PM if you want it. It honestly is a very useful resource.

Riesch's book also details the accessories for the Carbine. I've got several of the Type one ammo pouches ("buttstock" pouches) that I've picked up here and there over the years. Originals are pricey, as are original oilers and slings. Slings can go for over $100...I'll end up getting one one day just for the collection, but there are very good repros out there as far as slings go. Guns shows are my source for my Carbine collectibles; I have to have it in my hands and to be able to give it a real good going over before I'll accept that it's an original piece. But I do love looking for this stuff...original ammo, carrying cases, mags, manuals, bayonets...I've spent a lot of time and money gathering stuff for my WWII rifles.

But like I said, some of the repro's are very good. When I take my Carbines out shooting they are usually wearing repro gear.

And finally...ultimately it's very very hard to tell what's original, what a particular Carbine had in her when she left the line, and all that. Even all of the research books out there can be wrong. Every book usually makes mention of the fact that the Arsenal of Democracy was operating at full tilt to churn out the material of war and that all of the producers of the M1 Carbine would swap and ship each other parts to ensure that Carbines were completed in time. Add to that the fact that when parts wore out or broke or were improved that armorers didn't care about keeping things original.

I'll end my post now. So much to talk about!!! To bad I'm within city limits or I'd step out back and pop off a mag of surplus LC 44 .30 Carbine, keeping the brass of course.

 

[Mosineer]

Congrats!!! Its a keeper!!! That is one nice Carbine!! My opinion is you have received excellent information from the gang. Very few Carbines have not been through a rebuild and whether yours has or hasn't, bottom line (other than money wise), makes very little difference IMO. Any way you look at it, you have a top notch historical military firearm in your possession that any enthusiast would love to have. The Carbine is a thing of beauty in its own right and yours is an excellent example. I am fortunate to own a UNQUALITY Carbine which is a bit rare and a CMP UNDERWOOD mixer which is nowhere near rare, neither are going anywhere except to family and hopefully stay there for generations. So, to me your Carbine (historically and personal ideology) is priceless, in reality you should have no trouble profieting from your investment if that is your wish. They are a hoot to shoot and their history is glorious. Again congrats and have fun!!

Here are a couple of links for parts, tools and accessories. Some original, most not.

Numrich Gun Parts Corp. - The World's Largest Supplier of Firearms Parts and Accessories

Tools & Accessories

 

[edporch]

I lucked out a few years ago, and bought an Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine at my local gun shop for about $450 if memory serves.
It appears to have been through a rebuild in the 1950's.

 

[Mad Anthony Wayne]

Thanks again for all the info and the links guys! The Ingo gang is an awesome group!!!

 

[CandRFan]

I lucked out a few years ago, and bought an Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine at my local gun shop for about $450 if memory serves.
It appears to have been through a rebuild in the 1950's.

That's a good deal too. Do you still have it?

 

[edporch]

That's a good deal too. Do you still have it?

Yes I do.
It would take a lot to make me sell it.

 

[Denny347]

Stock looks refinished

 

[thompal]

Hey guys, thanks a million for the quality information. I don't think I'm gonna ever get rid of this one. Its in super nice condition, and Im really enjoying the history behind this rifle! I may have to get an M1 Garand, bolt action Springfield, and reproduction Thompson to go with it now. :-) Any ideas where I can get a sling and oiler, along with a butt stock mag pouch? I would like to keep it authentic unless the prices are sky high, in which case a reproduction would be fine. Of course, the cheaper the better. Lol!

Don't get too excited about the buttstock mag pouch. I used to have an M1 Carbine (not nearly as nice as yours) and when I put one of those pouches on it and put two loaded mags in it, it really screwed up the balance of the rifle.

Neat idea in theory, and they look nice in a historical way, but they mess with the handy ergonomics of the rifle.