I am a retired police officer. I now do some training with law-enforcement agencies. I have read a lot of posts on here by people who felt they were treated badly by police, especially when open-carrying. I would like to ask the members on here how they would train officers to deal with someone who is open-carrying. Please try to put yourselves in the shoes of a training officer who is teaching new officers how to respond to these situations and calls.
Some of the rules that I would like for us to abide by are:
1. Can we please keep this civil and professional?
2. Remember that there are bad people who carry guns too and not everyone who is open-carrying is automatically a good guy.
3. Most officers who approach someone who is open-carrying are doing so because they are responding to a dispatched run about that person. The officer has a responsibility to their community to do their job and investigate why this person has a gun and to confirm that they are legal if they are dispatched to do so.
Thank You
After reading through the first seven pages that were on here as of 11-21-12, here is what I think I'm getting from you guys. Please let me know if this sounds right.
You understand that it is illegal to carry a handgun in Indiana unless you have a permit. (Or license. I apologize to the poster who believes me to be ignorant because I called the license a permit. I've been around for a while and we used to always call them a Triple-P or Personal Protection Permit.)
As such, you understand that an officer can approach you and ask for your permit, especially if someone calls in about you. Please realize that the dispatchers at every 911 center that I know are civilians and are not familiar with the laws. Also, a lot of citizens cannot be easily convinced that it is okay for someone to walk down the street with a firearm. I am not criticizing OC by this statement, I'm just pointing out that a lot of people are ignorant about guns and gun laws.
You want to be treated respectfully as a law-abiding citizen and you will do the same to the officer.
You do not want to have to turn over your firearm to the officer for any reason.
Does that all sound right? I like where the dialog has gone so far and I appreciate the input on this. Thanks Again.
One thing that I disagree with is the stereotyping that criminals don't use holsters or high-quality firearms. They do use both. If you look in a major city's evidence room like Evansville P.D., you'll see Kimbers, Glocks, Sigs, Desert Eagles, or whatever else. Most of the guns used by criminals are stolen. If the gun had a holster when they stole it, they will often use the holster too. I also know that a lot of good people don't use holsters and can't afford to carry what I consider to be high-quality firearms.
Based on this case that the police can stop someone when they have a specific complaint, I don't think the Supreme Court case of Delaware v. Prouse as listed in several posts would stop the police from checking with someone to verify they they have a license to carry, especially if the police are responding to a complaint. I agree that our dispatchers could try to verify the complaint before sending an officer and that is also something that we can work on.
Also, it was deer season so I've been hunting.
Tinner666 sent me some info from the Utah Department of Public Safety http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FAQ.html#2
Question: If I get stopped by a police officer, do I, as a permit holder, have to tell the officer that I have a gun in my possession?
Answer: Although there is no legal requirement to identify yourself to a law enforcement officer, it is recommended to do so.
If an officer finds or sees a gun on your person during their contact with you, and you have not identified yourself as a permit holder in legal possession of a firearm, the officer may assume you are carrying the gun illegally and may take defensive action. For the safety of all involved, it is recommended to immediately identify yourself to the officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun. This action gives the officer some assurance they are most likely dealing with a law abiding citizen.
I agree that this is probably a good idea so that the officer isn't "surprised" by seeing a gun on you. I have always identified myself as carrying when encountered by police and I have always appreciated when people told me they were carrying. In my experience, I was always more likely to give a break to people lawfully carrying because I figured that they probably had a clean criminal history or they wouldn't have had a carry permit. I appreciate your input on this too guys. Thanks
Some of the rules that I would like for us to abide by are:
1. Can we please keep this civil and professional?
2. Remember that there are bad people who carry guns too and not everyone who is open-carrying is automatically a good guy.
3. Most officers who approach someone who is open-carrying are doing so because they are responding to a dispatched run about that person. The officer has a responsibility to their community to do their job and investigate why this person has a gun and to confirm that they are legal if they are dispatched to do so.
Thank You
After reading through the first seven pages that were on here as of 11-21-12, here is what I think I'm getting from you guys. Please let me know if this sounds right.
You understand that it is illegal to carry a handgun in Indiana unless you have a permit. (Or license. I apologize to the poster who believes me to be ignorant because I called the license a permit. I've been around for a while and we used to always call them a Triple-P or Personal Protection Permit.)
As such, you understand that an officer can approach you and ask for your permit, especially if someone calls in about you. Please realize that the dispatchers at every 911 center that I know are civilians and are not familiar with the laws. Also, a lot of citizens cannot be easily convinced that it is okay for someone to walk down the street with a firearm. I am not criticizing OC by this statement, I'm just pointing out that a lot of people are ignorant about guns and gun laws.
You want to be treated respectfully as a law-abiding citizen and you will do the same to the officer.
You do not want to have to turn over your firearm to the officer for any reason.
Does that all sound right? I like where the dialog has gone so far and I appreciate the input on this. Thanks Again.
One thing that I disagree with is the stereotyping that criminals don't use holsters or high-quality firearms. They do use both. If you look in a major city's evidence room like Evansville P.D., you'll see Kimbers, Glocks, Sigs, Desert Eagles, or whatever else. Most of the guns used by criminals are stolen. If the gun had a holster when they stole it, they will often use the holster too. I also know that a lot of good people don't use holsters and can't afford to carry what I consider to be high-quality firearms.
You are right that we don't stop everyone to check to see if they have a driver's license. If we receive a complaint about an unlicensed driver, we do follow up on it. I personally have one case that went to the Indiana Court of Appeals on just such an incident. See Coates v. State of Indiana, 650 N.E. 2d 58 (1995), court of Appeals of Indiana of Indiana, First District. I don't know about every jurisdiction in Indiana but most departments send officers to every run that they receive.Just as you would not stop or respond to a call that someone might be driving without a license and cannot lawfully stop every car just to check if the driver is licensed, I would prefer that you not approach or stop me at all unless you have something more than a hunch that I'm doing something wrong.
Based on this case that the police can stop someone when they have a specific complaint, I don't think the Supreme Court case of Delaware v. Prouse as listed in several posts would stop the police from checking with someone to verify they they have a license to carry, especially if the police are responding to a complaint. I agree that our dispatchers could try to verify the complaint before sending an officer and that is also something that we can work on.
I have commented by updating my original post. I haven't commented with additional posts because I'm asking for others' opinions and not just giving my opinions. I am not involved in any legal cases and I'm not looking at getting into a bunch of petty arguing. I am just trying to make things better at the agencies that I train with. Thanks for your lack of trust thoughAnyone else find it interesting EPD1102 started the thread 3days ago and NOT comminted sence??
intrapment?
court case coming up soon???
Also, it was deer season so I've been hunting.
Tinner666 sent me some info from the Utah Department of Public Safety http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FAQ.html#2
Question: If I get stopped by a police officer, do I, as a permit holder, have to tell the officer that I have a gun in my possession?
Answer: Although there is no legal requirement to identify yourself to a law enforcement officer, it is recommended to do so.
If an officer finds or sees a gun on your person during their contact with you, and you have not identified yourself as a permit holder in legal possession of a firearm, the officer may assume you are carrying the gun illegally and may take defensive action. For the safety of all involved, it is recommended to immediately identify yourself to the officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun. This action gives the officer some assurance they are most likely dealing with a law abiding citizen.
I agree that this is probably a good idea so that the officer isn't "surprised" by seeing a gun on you. I have always identified myself as carrying when encountered by police and I have always appreciated when people told me they were carrying. In my experience, I was always more likely to give a break to people lawfully carrying because I figured that they probably had a clean criminal history or they wouldn't have had a carry permit. I appreciate your input on this too guys. Thanks
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