Home Generators

[MarkR]

What are your thoughts on Natural Gas Standby Generators? For power outages of several days it seems like it might be the way to go (no fuel storage issues you would have with gasoline, diesel, or propane) and you would have an "endless" supply. However, if a power outage was more long term, is Natural Gas reliable? Are there any circumstances where you would envision Natural Gas being turned off?
Also, I've seen generators that run at either 3600 rpm and 1800 rpm, with the 1800 engines being much more expensive. Worth the additional cost?
Thoughts?
I asked this question in another post, but thought it might deserve it's own thread.
Thanks, as I'm very interested in the experiences of this forum, as I know a lot of you have back-up generators.

 

[redneckmedic]

First it depends on how much you are supplying.......well pump and fridge and freezer, no biggie. But luxery items???

What are your goals for the generator........short term energy supply, up to a week? or SHTF?

SHTF def. go with gasoline. I think its good thinking outside the box, but a few 5 or 10 gal containers and your set. IMO

 

[RogerB]

review this thread

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/survival_and_disaster_preparedness/5807-lp_generator.html

 

[Dr Falken]

I haven't done a lot of research, but I'd think having a natural gas generator is sorta like being off the grid, but not...your tethered still. We don't have a well, we are conected to a water main, so I shouldn't worry about water? I have a gas generator, they're cheap(er), put you'll get longer duty cycles from water cooled diesel or propane with out being "hooked" to a grid...of course a multi fuel generator would be best, but we have a 500 gal propane tank sitting there anyhow, why not a propane generator...and there is a conversion kit for gas to propane/natural gas.

 

[bynder]

the way i understand these type generators is they can run on either fuel propane or natural gas with just a flip of a switch

 

[VN Vet]

I am putting one in at my Cabin in the Woods, but my Sister and her husband is paying for it and making the selection. I don't know what they are getting, but I can find out.

 

[Jack Ryan]

My bobcat 250 miller welder is my back up generator. I highly recomend it. That way it doesn't just sit around loafing as much waiting for SHTF.

If money was no object I'd have gotton the diesel equivilent but they are about double the cost.

 

[WhitleyStu]

We've got a GenPro 15,000w 25HP gas generator. I wish now that I would have bought a propane unit so I could just have a 100 gallon propane tank set outside. During the December 2008 ice storm we had to make several fuel runs since our unit eats 1.5 gallons/hour during the day under a load or .75 gallons/hour just keeping the power on during the night. It ran for 38 hours last December.

 

[Michiana]

We lived in So Florida for five years (2002-2007) and went through two major hurricanes. Wilma left us with no power for five days. I have a gas generator but when you can't get gas they are useless. I had fifteen gallons of gas but the generator eats a gallon an hour so had to turn it on long enough to keep everything cold and then shut down for a few hours and don't open the refrig. If I had it to do over I would buy a propane or natural gas generator and have it hard plumbed.

Since I moved back to Indiana it sits in my garage taking up space. I keep ten gal of gas just in case and cycle it into my cars every six months.

 

[jedi]

As others have stated it depends on several things:

1) How much power do you need?
(What are you trying to power: basic items (water pump, sump pump, fridge), luxury items (PC, iPod, cellphone, etc) or ALL the house.)

2) Wheredo you live? Urban area or rural


Why are these important? It helps narrow down the choices.

Portable Gas Generators PROs
- Portable can be used at your place, your pops, the old lady next door, etc
- Are cheaper to buy that the NG ones
- Maintence can be done by you (oil change, spark plugs, air filter)
- Can power small, medium, and EVEN the entire house (price will vary)

Portable Gas Generators CONs
- Are loud! Which means you are now a Zombie Target.
Read link below for more info
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ness/12040-shtf_tornando_lessons_learned.html
- Eat gas like crazy per hour. You need a LOT of gas (think 55g barrel and think 10s of these barrels for 1000s of gallons of fuel to run for 7+ days).
- Gas is a logstical nightmare to store and can not be stored for more than 2 years (at most)
- The bigger generators may be too heavy for 1 person to move fully loaded.
- Small constructions of concrete pad for securing may be needed
- Extra expense to have switch installed in the house for transfer to power all the house


Natural Gas Generators PROs
- Worry free, electriciy is lost the NG gen's mointoring system switched the house grid to it's own grid and the gen starts up. Process takes 2 to 3 mins at most. YOU DO NOTING!
- No need to store NG since it's supplied by utility company
If yougo propane route you can store as much as you can handle on your property
- No zombie target since they CANNOT take the generator. Your house is another story. Now everyone knows you have power. =)
- You power the ENTIRE house.
- You pay for total cost up front: installation, cement pad, utility connection, etc.

Natural Gas Generators CONs
- You typically CANNOT maintaine. You buy a service contract and they come out once a year or more to monitor and maintance the generator. This is extra cost.
- If you have a NG leak (earthquake) you may by SOL if they shut down the NG in your area.
- It's expensive and not really meant to just power your basic items. Its more for extire building.
- No storage of fuel like dangerous gas.

Hope this helps. I did a lot of research when I got my portable generator that can light the entire power (all my applicanes at once and all the TVs, lights in the house. I tested it and it worked.)=)

PM or email me if you want more info or just post here. Glad to helpyou.

 

[El Cazador]

I install these, although in the 50,000 watt range usually. Natural gas gens are fine as long as you have a ready supply. During most weather/climate problems, natural gas service won't be cut off. Earthquakes could be a different issue though. Political problems are a whole different deal as well for supply issues. LP has to be delivered, a tank set in place, and maintained, so take that into account. Also remember that dry gas generators run at about a 20% deficiency to wet fuels, so your attached load will have to accomodate the loss of HP, or get the next size up in generator. Your usage rate of fuel when the gen runs needs to be looked at for LP, since it's delivered by truck, and if the truck can't get to you, (ice storm, deep snow, flooding, etc) you have to have enough capacity (storage) to outlast the event.

You can't switch between NG and LP with a valve or switch. NG runs at a much lower pressure than LP, and the regulators have to be calibrated for one or the other. A few "dual fuel" gens run from either gasoline or diesel to a dry gas like LP or NG, but they are few and far in between.

An 1800 RPM gen provides better regulated voltage, doesn't burn fuel near as fast, lasts longer overall, and has less maintenance needs than a 3600 RPM one.

If you REALLY want to go "off grid", there's always Producer Gas...

Woody CHP :: Woody Gasifier

You can build one of these yourself, even FEMA has a set of drawings for one.

 

[melensdad]

These are my opinions, based on my experiences dealing with several power outages ranging between 24 hours and 8 days during -20 degree weather, your opinions may be different.

I have a TRI-FUEL generator. It is set up to run on Natural Gas and connected to the natural gas feed that comes into the house. It also has a 5 gallon gas tank on the top of the generator so I can use gasoline or N.G. To switch from Gasoline to N.G. is literally a 20 second process, you open a butterfly valve under the gas tank to allow gasoline to flow and you close the N.G. valve to stop the N.G. flow (or visa versa) and you've just switched over the fuel source. No tools needed.

All generators should be connected to your house by a real electrician with an isolation/cutover switch. I did not install my own generator. In a pinch I could, and I have on one occasion, backfeed a generator into my house panel through the AC circuit, but that is not a good plan, it just works in a pinch with a small generator.

My generator was purchased about 15 years ago, so it was before it was common to have stand alone back up power systems like are commonly sold today. There is some good and some bad to the new self-contained generator systems. The current self contained systems auto start and auto exercise themselves, they are quiet, they are weatherproof and they do work nicely. They typically have an automatic cutover and isolation system as well. If you can afford it, it is the best system to go with as long as you have a steady supply of fuel. Most work on natural gas or propane. The propane units require that you have your own propane tank, and they require a lot of propane to operate so don't even begin to think you can use 20#, 40# or even 100# cylinders to operate a large back up generator with those. You need the great big (size of a small car) cylinder in your yard for a propane generator to run for any length of time. Small cylinders may run your generator for a few hours or even for a day if you stretch it out or have larger cylinders.

My generator is a 12,000 watt tri-fuel generator. I have it connected up to the natural gas line. I can switch it to propane tanks but have no illusion that I can survive a week on propane, I can probably keep the food from rotting in the freezers for several days with propane but not much beyond that. It also will use gasoline, runs about 7 hours on 5 gallons of gas.

A 12,000 watt generator is NOT enough to run my whole house (I have a fairly large home). In fact I doubt it would even run my air conditioner. It will power my refrigerators (2) and freezers (2), pump my water (well), keep the ceiling fans spinning, run the furnace and power the lights in most of our rooms. It also runs things like the home entertainment systems, microwave, etc.

It should also be pointed out that a TRI-FUEL generator does not put out FULL WATTAGE with all 3 fuels. These things are rated for gasoline, but propane generates LESS power, and N.G. generates EVEN LESS than propane. So I get 12,000 on gasoline, 10,800 watts on propane, and 9600 watts on natural gas. YOU MUST SIZE YOUR GENERATOR to your loads.​

I live in a large house (4000+sq ft) that is pretty energy efficient. We use a lot of compact florescent bulbs which use about 20-to-25% of the amount of energy as a regular light bulb. It is well insulated. So 9600 watts will keep our furnace running, keep us comfortable, even keep the big screen TV running. But we are careful when we shower because the draw from the well pump can dim the lights if we have everything else running. Figure out what you NEED to stay warm in the worst weather you can imagine. Calculate your electrical draw from that point and then start to add in other uses as above your "needs" to see what size generator you will have to buy.

For example, if you want to power your refrigerator, furnace, and your master bedroom lights, TV, etc, plus the lights in 1 bathroom, all you have to do is look at the electrical draw for each of those things. Your bathroom is probably on 1 circuit, probably has a couple light bulbs and a fan. Read the wattage on each bulb, read the wattage on the fan. That is the amount of power you need to supply to the bathroom. Do the same for the bedroom. Do the same for the furnace and the kitchen but . . . with the refrigerator and the furnace you are dealing with pumps/fans and they have a greater 'start up' draw so you need to factor those in to your power needs. Again, look at the appliance and it will typically tell you what the requirements are in watts.

It is that simple, just add everything up. I'd suggest getting a generator 10% larger than what you calculate. So if you need 4000 Watts to cover your needs, then get a generator that will run 4400 watts. And when I say run, I am not talking "peak" power, I am talking running power.

In my case we added up all the 'need' things like the well, the 2 refrigerators, the freezer, the furnace fan, etc. We then selected rooms where we would spend the most time so the master bedroom suite is fully powered, the kitchen is fully powered, the occupied bedrooms, etc. We also powered hallway/stairwell lights, etc. But we did NOT power the formal dining room or the outdoor flood lights or other places that were NOT critical for safety or needed for comfort.​

The next step is to have all your generator powered circuits moved into a different breaker box. So you will have your main power from the utility coming into your main breaker box -- next to it will be the cutover/isolation box -- next to that will be your generator breaker box. All the circuits supplied with power by your generator will be in that new generator breaker box. If you get a really big generator that is capable of running your whole house then you can eliminate the generator breaker box and simply use the main box with a cutover/isolation box.

You NEED a cutover/isolation box. That must be installed by someone who knows what the heck they are doing!!! It prevents the generator you are running from send power out to the 'grid' and killing a lineman who is trying to repair the power line.

In my case, because my generator is not an automatic unit, when we have a power failure I have to grab a flashlight and walk downstairs. There is 1 switch on my isolation/cutover box that needs to be flipped. I then walk out to my garage where my generator is and I turn the valve on my natural gas line, and then I turn the key on my generator to start it up. The entire process takes about 2 minutes. I have printed instructions on the generator for my wife. I also have printed instruction on the cutover/isolation box for my wife. Those are in place in case I am not home.

If I was buying a generator today, I would probably buy a 20,000 watt auto start unit. I would get a liquid cooled 1800 rpm unit. I would get an "ultra quiet" unit because these things make a lot of noise! It would likely cost about $15,000. A 15,000 watt unit that I priced not too long ago was just about $9500.00. A similar 15,000 watt unit that does not have all the automatic features, runs a bit louder, could save about $500. Those are prices are NOT installed prices.​

BUT DON'T LET THOSE PRICES SCARE YOU because you can get a 5000 watt portable generator that runs on gas, get a cutover/isolation box and have it all installed for under $1500. Don't expect it to run your whole house, but it will keep you warm in the winter and keep your food from rotting. It might even keep your TV running too.

 

[ar15_dude]

As for stationary backup generators, I think propane (LPG) is preferable to Natural Gas since you can buy and own propane (and it has an indefinite storage life), and not be dependent on the constant flow and monthly bills associated with natural gas. Floods and earthquakes can both disrupt the natural gas flow, as well as missing a payment! A dedicated 500 or 1000 gal LPG tank would be nice, but remember that at $1.50/gal that is $750-1500 worth of fuel sitting there.

 

[melensdad]

As for stationary backup generators, I think propane (LPG) is preferable to Natural Gas since you can buy and own propane (and it has an indefinite storage life), and not be dependent on the constant flow and monthly bills associated with natural gas. Floods and earthquakes can both disrupt the natural gas flow, as well as missing a payment! A dedicated 500 or 1000 gal LPG tank would be nice, but remember that at $1.50/gal that is $750-1500 worth of fuel sitting there.

The downside to propane is that you have to have space for a pressure tank the size of Buick. Not everyone has the ability to have such a tank sitting in their yard. Further, propane is heavier than air, so the tank has to be away from buildings with basements because if there is a leak the propane will displace the air in the basement and could lead to a tragic explosion.

I'm not saying its a bad choice, in fact I agree that Propane is an excellent choice, however it is not suitable for all situations.

 

[MarkR]

review this thread

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/survival_and_disaster_preparedness/5807-lp_generator.html

Thanks Roger, much appreciated! I did a search, but didn't see this. Also, thanks to Melensdad for posting this (again). A lot of info and insights - and very helpful. There are always trade-offs and compromises - nothing is perfect - but finding a balance between fuel availability/reliability, storage, efficiency, and "most likely" scenarios, I've decided to go with Natural Gas. Now the only question is whether or not an 1800 rpm engine is worth the additional cost over a 3600 rpm. More efficient, quieter, will last longer. But quite a bit more $$.

 

[GhostofWinter]

The downside to propane is that you have to have space for a pressure tank the size of Buick. Not everyone has the ability to have such a tank sitting in their yard. Further, propane is heavier than air, so the tank has to be away from buildings with basements because if there is a leak the propane will displace the air in the basement and could lead to a tragic explosion.

I'm not saying its a bad choice, in fact I agree that Propane is an excellent choice, however it is not suitable for all situations.

OK I may be asking a stupid question here, but aren't you able to bury the tank? I mean I understand the reasons you need to keep it away from the house, but wouldn't burying the tank solve several problems at once? The need to have a tank the size of a buick in your yard as well as isolating it from the house a bit in case of a leak, AND your neighbors have no clue you have it.

Greg

 

[melensdad]

I don't know if it is legal to bury a propane tank. I've NEVER seen one buried and I suspect it would not be legal. Even propane storage yards have the tanks above ground with lots of space around them for airflow.

 

[GhostofWinter]

ok. I just had this thought. I mean you can bury gasoline and diesel tanks, so I thought why can't you bury propane as well?

Greg

 

[El Cazador]

ok. I just had this thought. I mean you can bury gasoline and diesel tanks, so I thought why can't you bury propane as well?

Greg

I have no idea about any civic law, but most folks lease their tanks from the supplier, and the supplier has to maintain the tanks, so they may not allow burial of the leased tanks. Propane tanks are also a "pressure vessel" so burying them might be problematic. Our supplier is a relative, so next time I'm in town, I'll stop and ask.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Propane tanks that size are not cheap to buy and I've never seen one of any type that was not set up to get the readings in any manner other than above ground. Most of the big tanks are provide to customers by the propane company and sized based on usage. They are not going to provide a big tank that just sits there full all the time. If you are using propane as a regular fuel then running the generator off it makes sense.