Hold your ground and castle law in simple terms please

[Flyguy]

I have a good size outbuilding that is 100 feet from my house. It is heated and I spend a lot of time out there and there is quite a lot of money in property and tools there including computers.

I am assuming that if I am ocupying that building and someone is trying to force their way in, the castle doctrine applies even it isn't my house.

Opinions???

 

[GuyRelford]

I have a good size outbuilding that is 100 feet from my house. It is heated and I spend a lot of time out there and there is quite a lot of money in property and tools there including computers.

I am assuming that if I am ocupying that building and someone is trying to force their way in the castle doctrine applies even it isn't my house.

Opinions???

It sounds to me that this building is a site of "normal domestic activities" and that you've taken steps to protect an expectation of privacy there. As such, there is a very good likelihood that it would be considered your "curtilage" and the castle doctrine would apply, even though it's not your "dwelling."

That's just my opinion - not legal advice!

Guy

 

[Flyguy]

It sounds to me that this building is a site of "normal domestic activities" and that you've taken steps to protect an expectation of privacy there. As such, there is a very good likelihood that it would be considered your "curtilage" and the castle doctrine would apply, even though it's not your "dwelling."

That's just my opinion - not legal advice!

Guy

Thanks Guy. That is exactly what I was getting at.

 

[NapalmFTW]

Two words:
Homeowners insurance. I don't want to shoot and kill someone for stealing my stuff.

Stuff can be replaced.

My opinion and I know I'll probably be flamed for it.

 

[JR50]

Napalm has it right!

 

[Flyguy]

No flaming necessary... I am in agreement with you. My post was intended to make a legal point. If I were in my "man cave" and someone was trying to break in against locked doors why wouldn't I be allowed to exercise the same rights as if I were in my dwelling.

Also insurance sucks. I have it because I have to, but they will do everything they can to reduce the claim after taking my money in good faith.

Also they can't replace everything I have and they will place a value on my things to reduce their liability. My avatar is an example. It isn't a model. (Some think it is) It is one of a kind and can't be replaced (if you look closely you can see me in there) and I know I would take a serious hit on that one. Why should I not be allowed to protect my stuff if it were in or on my curtilage.

Just asking...

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

No flaming necessary... I am in agreement with you. My post was intended to make a legal point. If I were in my "man cave" and someone was trying to break in against locked doors why wouldn't I be allowed to exercise the same rights as if I were in my dwelling.

Also insurance sucks. I have it because I have to, but they will do everything they can to reduce the claim after taking my money in good faith.

Also they can't replace everything I have and they will place a value on my things to reduce their liability. My avatar is an example. It isn't a model. (Some think it is) It is one of a kind and can't be replaced (if you look closely you can see me in there) and I know I would take a serious hit on that one. Why should I not be allowed to protect my stuff if it were in or on my curtilage.

Just asking...

In said situation I would not see that any differently than if you were setting on your couch in the house and someone broke in.. In both situations you could easily be in fear for your life and thus deadly force would then be justified to stop said offender. IANAL but that's my personal interpretation of the law.

 

[Hammerhead]

Eric70 If the thieves are actually loading a vehicle, shoot up said vehicle to the point that it cannot leave or get very far if it does. I wouldn't put any rounds thru the passenger compartment.
And be be ready in case they return fire. They probably wouldn't, but could of course. You never know.

There are other ways to disable a vehicle without putting rounds into it, as you've been told would be a bad idea.

Knifing the tires is one.

 

[John Galt]

I am a small business owner and spend quite a few evenings working late. What are the opinions on using DF in this facility if someone is breaking in, WHILE I AM INSIDE (not talking about walking in on a burglary in progress) even though it's not a "dwelling"?
PS - Great topic and discussions!

 

[GuyRelford]

I am a small business owner and spend quite a few evenings working late. What are the opinions on using DF in this facility if someone is breaking in, WHILE I AM INSIDE (not talking about walking in on a burglary in progress) even though it's not a "dwelling"?
PS - Great topic and discussions!

The castle doctrine doesn't apply, so you'd need to have a reasonable belief that deadly force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury or the commission of a forcible felony. Burglary wouldn't qualify as a forcible felony, but robbery would.

Just my opinion - not legal advice.

Guy

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

The castle doctrine doesn't apply, so you'd need to have a reasonable belief that deadly force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury or the commission of a forcible felony. Burglary wouldn't qualify as a forcible felony, but robbery would.

Just my opinion - not legal advice.

Guy

Would you mind explaining the difference in that situation then? It seems confusing to as to determining the difference. As an opinion of course and not as legal advice.

Thanks

 

[GuyRelford]

Would you mind explaining the difference in that situation then? It seems confusing to as to determining the difference. As an opinion of course and not as legal advice.

Thanks

Sure. The castle doctrine only applies to your "dwelling, curtilage or occupied motor vehicle." So your business wouldn't be covered.

Guy

 

[finity]

Would you mind explaining the difference in that situation then? It seems confusing to as to determining the difference. As an opinion of course and not as legal advice.

Thanks

It's always best to just look at the relevant laws.

"Burglary" is not located in the section on "offenses against the person". It is located under "offenses against property". Therefore burglary can't be considered a forcible felony since one of the requirements is that there be a threat of force against a human being and IN law doesn't define it as it being a crime against a person.

IC 35-43-2-1
Burglary
Sec. 1. A person who breaks and enters the building or structure of another person, with intent to commit a felony in it, commits burglary, a Class C felony. However, the offense is:
(1) a Class B felony if:
(A) it is committed while armed with a deadly weapon; or
(B) the building or structure is a:
(i) dwelling; or
(ii) structure used for religious worship; and
(2) a Class A felony if it results in:
(A) bodily injury; or
(B) serious bodily injury;
to any person other than a defendant.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.3. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.42; Acts 1982, P.L.204, SEC.36; P.L.88-1999, SEC.2.

The only reason why your house, occupied car or curtilage is different is because those cases are SPECIFICALLY listed in the IC as a justification to use deadly force. Without those provisions in the IC (or court precedent to allow it under common law) there would be no difference in the requirements between burglary of your business or burglary of your house.

IOW, the ONLY reason you can use deadly force WITHOUT a specific threat of SBI or a FF when someone is breaking into your house is because of the "castle doctrine". In IN the "castle doctrine" doesn't include your business.

But, as TFT said above, if there is an imminent threat of SBI or a FF then DF is still justified only under a different section of the IC (IC 35-41-3-2(a) instead of IC 35-41-3-2(b) ).

At least that's the way I see it.

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

It's always best to just look at the relevant laws.

"Burglary" is not located in the section on "offenses against the person". It is located under "offenses against property". Therefore burglary can't be considered a forcible felony since one of the requirements is that there be a threat of force against a human being and IN law doesn't define it as it being a crime against a person.



The only reason why your house, occupied car or curtilage is different is because those cases are SPECIFICALLY listed in the IC as a justification to use deadly force. Without those provisions in the IC (or court precedent to allow it under common law) there would be no difference in the requirements between burglary of your business or burglary of your house.

IOW, the ONLY reason you can use deadly force WITHOUT a specific threat of SBI or a FF when someone is breaking into your house is because of the "castle doctrine". In IN the "castle doctrine" doesn't include your business.

But, as TFT said above, if there is an imminent threat of SBI or a FF then DF is still justified only under a different section of the IC (IC 35-41-3-2(a) instead of IC 35-41-3-2(b) ).

At least that's the way I see it.

Nevermind I need to read better.

 

[John Galt]

Thank you!

 

[GuyRelford]

Would you mind explaining the difference in that situation then? It seems confusing to as to determining the difference. As an opinion of course and not as legal advice.

Thanks

"Forcible felony" is actually defined in the code:

IC 35-41-1-11
"Forcible felony"
Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent danger of bodily injury to a human being.

Guy

 

[Bunnykid68]

Sure. The castle doctrine only applies to your "dwelling, curtilage or occupied motor vehicle." So your business wouldn't be covered.

Guy

Wouldn't your business be covered if you were in it?

 

[GuyRelford]

Wouldn't your business be covered if you were in it?

Nope.

 

[Glock22-27]

You guys mention that is someone is burglarizing your vehicle you can't obviously just shoot them......but what if you confront them and they pull a weapon out at you (gun, knife, tire iron, etc.) Then what?

and this is say in front of your home?

 

[GuyRelford]

You guys mention that is someone is burglarizing your vehicle you can't obviously just shoot them......but what if you confront them and they pull a weapon out at you (gun, knife, tire iron, etc.) Then what?

Then you would likely have a basis for a reasonable belief that deadly force was necessary to prevent "serious bodily injury or the commission of a forcible felony," which is required outside of your "dwelling, curtilage or occupied motor vehicle."

Guy