Hogsett Administration is Closing Eagle Creek Pistol Range in Indy

[patience0830]

I wonder if I cornered him after church one day if he would give a legitimate reason? (we both attend the same church but have never interacted more than a pleasant nod and "good morning" in passing)

And no I wont reveal where he worships and I wont confront him; either would be tacky.

Ask him to lunch. THEN confront him. He's all about taking care of you. Unless you want to practice with your self defense tools. If I lived where that range was my practice facility, i'd definitely get my point across. Probably in public in front of as many people as I could corral.

 

[tbhausen]

IPD has been shooting at that location since the late 60's. I don't know what occurred in 1981, long before my time.

I was as surprised to hear about this as anyone else. I hadn't heard any rumblings of the sort.

That's how authoritarian Democrats do things, just like Bugsy Dailey and Meigs.

Surely there was a middle ground--even to leave over just Sundays for the serfdom?

 

[tbhausen]

Just what the hell is "government owned", anyway?

I prefer to think "taxpayer owned". Same for "government funded". WE are the government. We AND our money.

You're stealing my lines.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Wow what memories of that range and the one at Ft Harrison, was top gun of my recruit class there, anyone ever spend a hot July day removing the used targets from the semi trailer parked there? I don't remember how long it took us, but it was hot and sweaty, PT'd the hell out of that area, remember the old cars, mail box etc, with bullet holes in the roofs from students, and of course picking up tons of brass, and going back to the buckets for more .40.

 

[Bapak2ja]

Reading through this thread makes me glad I live in Fort Wayne. We only have to deal with a Democratic mayor and an overreaching, domineering, power hungry city council. We only have to worry about our suburban property taxes being used to revitalize the private property in the downtown city center. Since it is necessary to revitalize the city center, it is appropriate to take my tax money to pay for it. When my taxes are not enough to fund the private expansion of the city center, the wonderful Democratic mayor moves to annex another portion of the county. This will transfer between $2.6 and $4.4 million from the Northwest Allen County Schools into the city coffers to pay their salaries, revitalize their private property, and, hopefully, fix that huge hole that suddenly appeared on Clinton Street, the main one-way street going south through the city.

I remember hearing a local talk show host castigate a caller who was on a rant about being annexed by the city. The host took the usual approach, "If you don't like how things are done in the city, LEAVE!" The caller replied with even great erheat, "WE DID! WE MOVED OUTSIDE THE CITY LIMITS TO GET AWAY FROM THIS CITY COUNCIL! Now they have annexed our sub-division and forced us back under their domination!"

The discussion about annexation became a reality when my sub-division was annexed by the same domineering mayor and city council. I seriously considered returning to the jungles of Borneo. In Borneo, my water came from the rain (ran off the roof into my underground cistern); my electricity came from my own Onan generator; my sewage went into my own septic system. The roads were mud and rock, filled with amazing holes—amazing for their depth and width! Medical care was provided by my wife (an RN) and two other RNs living across the compound from me. Mail was received once each month when we made our four-hour trip into town for supplies. News came via the short-wave radio, as cell phones had not been invented yet, and the phone lines were destroyed by the Japanese back in 1942. Our vegetables came free from the jungle, our meat came from cans or from the open-air meat markets in the provincial capital on the coast. We could get enough meat into our kerosene powered refrigerator so that we could have three ounces of meat once a day every month. We just had to be sure we had enough ice in the cooler to keep it cold on that four hour trip in tropical heat. Often had a bit of a gamey favor, though, despite our best efforts. Sometimes those holes could be a challenge—even for our 4-wheeling 20-year old Land Rover.

After reflecting on my life in the jungle I decided I was better off in the Fort. I could live that jungle life when I was in my 30s. Not the same thing when I am in my 60s. When I visited the area last year, after a twenty-year absence, all the people my age were already dead or soon would be. I also was reminded that no one, and I mean no one, in the jungle had a firearm. Only the police and military had guns. When the indigenous population went on the warpath—looting, burning, murdering, and cannibalizing their enemies (really, cannibalizing; the heart was eaten raw, freshly removed from the chest) they used their ancient weapons—machetes and spears. If you did not want to take on four machete-wielding bad guys at once, you beat it out of the jungle at the first word that the bowl of blood had been sent out as a call to war. So, overall I am better off in the Fort.

I will rage against the unfair taxation. I will complain about the domineering city council, and the aggrandizing attitude of this Democratic tax-and-spend mayor. I will vote the rascals out, installing a new batch of rascals, at every election. But with my sixty years of experience of life in this world, I will continue to thank my Lord Jesus Christ for the privilege of living in the Fort—one of the best cities humanity has ever built—in the greatest nation in the history of the human race.

Indy may have lost access to a firing range, but there are others you can use. You, like all of us Hoosiers, have been given a republic. As Benjamin Franklin said, it is yours only as long as you can keep it.

 

[wckd99GT]

the concept that we actually need laws to check corporate influence.

Laws for who? The corporations or the politicians? You're kidding yourself if you dont think our elected officials arent soaking the corporations when the opportunity arises. Sure the lobbyists work the corporations, but it goes both ways.

 

[kludge]

And so it begins.

Is there any lawsuit potential based on the federal monies used?

 

[eldirector]

Guy spoke to a group of folks yesterday evening, and Eagle Creek came up (of course). He indicated folks are looking into the legalities of the closure, mostly around the source of some funds require that the property be open to the public. He also indicated that he was "done" with dealing with Indy's BS. I don't blame him one bit. Hopefully this can get ironed out, and someone can step in to fill the void.

Thanks, Guy (and all the guys/gals that have been involved) for running ECPR so well for the last several years!

 

[T.Lex]

I looked for a follow-up, but I didn't find one.

So, it looks like the original ECPR was seeded with federal money, was taken over by IPD, and then upgraded to Olympic specifications before being re-opened to the public on a limited basis...at least from what I could tell.

All of the information I can find is rather poorly sourced...none of it actually refers to the federal laws that govern the grants. I cannot tell if the money actually had strings attached or not, and if so if there were any limits to those conditions.

Strictly speaking, I don't know if the mayor has the power to do this or not. Eagle Creek Park is a city park, so it makes sense that it falls under city jurisdiction...however, it certainly looks like the feds had their fingers sunk pretty deeply into the project as well, and they may have a say in all this, too.

I am going to keep an eye on this...it has piqued my interest.

Couple things - that grant program may no longer be in effect, so the strings - even if supposed to be permanent at the time - have sagged as the generations moved on.

An August 29, 1980, Indianapolis Star article has more info on the deal struck by the City (PD, and Parks) and State (administrator of grant and I think DNR) to free up funding required that all parts of Eagle Creek Park be open to the public. Having it only open part-time was a compromise.

 

[DanVoils]

Spoke with the charming Ashley this morning and registered my distaste in the range being closed. She said she had gotten some other complaints and she would send mine over.

 

[GuyRelford]

Guy spoke to a group of folks yesterday evening, and Eagle Creek came up (of course). He indicated folks are looking into the legalities of the closure, mostly around the source of some funds require that the property be open to the public. He also indicated that he was "done" with dealing with Indy's BS. I don't blame him one bit. Hopefully this can get ironed out, and someone can step in to fill the void.

Thanks, Guy (and all the guys/gals that have been involved) for running ECPR so well for the last several years!

Thank you, Ryan! And it was good to see you last night!

Guy

 

[WarJunky91]

Now you guys have done it, you got me curious and now i am combing newspaper archives looking for headlines about the grants used to make the park.

 

[rhino]

Take a look at the Indy Fiscal Ordinance No. 61,1981. That's where i got the info on the contribution from the Land & Water Conservation Fund of the Department of the Interior. The stipulation for the city to receive that $50,000 grant was that the Pistol range MUST be open to the public. That range was one of the facilities built for The National Sports Festival, hosted by Indianapolis in 1982.

Did you make the mayor's office aware of this fact?

 

[Hohn]

"We" still are the government, but the collective "we" put these people in office. It's time "we" take some responsibility for that.

Exactly. Want to know what's wrong with Indiana? We hoosiers, first and foremost.

What wrong with America? Americans.

 

[Trigger Time]

Private ranges should close all access to police departments

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Wrong? Of course not. If there is excess capacity, then let the public use it. It is, however, socialism. A government owned facility competing against private businesses. So, it could be hypocritical.

I can see that angle, but consider this: There is also an argument to be made for it being a public good and a legitimate government service, in the context of keeping the local unorganized militia (aka, "everybody"), and specifically those who cannot afford the private ranges, in practice with their weapons. In other words, it could be viewed as one the "legitimate" limited roles of the gov't spelled out in the Constitution (providing for the common defense, etc.). Full disclosure: I have never set foot on ECPR, or even Eagle Creek Park, and have no business interest for or against it being open to the public, I just don't like the politics being played by the Hogsett administration and believe in limited gov't that operates in accordance with the powers granted to it in the Constitution.

Ok. It's still socialism. You can phrase it "government owned" or "publicly owned" or however. It's a distinction without a difference.

I'm also not constantly preaching that the government is always the problem that needs to get out of the way, that any attempt at corporate governance is socialism, etc. I'm one of those odd people who think the government can actually be helpful and improve the quality of life of the citizens, although that doesn't play well these days in the political debates. I've been labeled a socialist here for supporting a minimum wage, unions, and the concept that we actually need laws to check corporate influence. Something that's ACTUALLY socialist, taxpayer funded facilities that compete with privately held businesses (such as ITP, Parabellum, BGF when they are back up and running) is just peachy, though, if it's something we want to play with. That's where they hypocrisy comes in for some folks. I'm not pointing any fingers, just something to think about before they throw stones about "socialism" in the future.

I don't know if it can really be considered socialism if it is fulfilling one of the enumerated limited roles of the gov't spelled out in the Constitution (providing for the common defense, etc.). Or maybe it is...maybe that tiny bit of socialism is ok since "We the People" essentially agreed to that and other specific limited roles and responsibilities for the gov't when the Constitution was ratified? I agree that the government can actually be helpful and improve the quality of life of the citizens, but personally, it is only acceptable to me when it is done in accordance with the limited powers granted to the gov't in the Constitution. I also see the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founding Fathers as the "instruction manual" for determining how the limited powers granted to the gov't should be interpreted/handled/viewed.

As for setting minimum wages paid by private businesses - I don't see that as one of the powers granted to the gov't in the Constitution and I am against minimum wage laws.

As for unions - they're fine so long as membership is voluntary for each employee. Strikes and deals between the union and the employer should be a strictly a private affair with no gov't intervention (that type of meddling is not one of the powers granted to the gov't in the Constitution).

As for laws to check corporate influence - this type of thing can cut both ways and I'm still trying to figure out how it all squares (or doesn't) with the specific powers granted to the gov't in the Constitution. No, I'm not perfect and no I don't have it all figured out

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Private ranges should close all access to police departments

That's real constructive. I mean it must be those bad old police that lobbied for the range to be closed to the public so they can play with all of their special "LE only" toys out of view of the public.

Sorry in advance if your post was stealth purple, my sarcasm meter may need recalibrated.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I can see that angle, but consider this: There is also an argument to be made for it being a public good and a legitimate government service, in the context of keeping the local unorganized militia (aka, "everybody"), and specifically those who cannot afford the private ranges, in practice with their weapons. In other words, it could be viewed as one the "legitimate" limited roles of the gov't spelled out in the Constitution (providing for the common defense, etc.). Full disclosure: I have never set foot on ECPR, or even Eagle Creek Park, and have no business interest for or against it being open to the public, I just don't like the politics being played by the Hogsett administration and believe in limited gov't that operates in accordance with the powers granted to it in the Constitution.

I'm all for public ranges. Already said so. I'm also for city parks, swimming pools, air conditioning centers for the elderly poor when it's hot enough to cause heat stroke deaths, etc. You don't need to sell me on the pro's of letting people who are poor have access to public facilities, nor that the more people who engage in shooting sports the safer the 2nd amendment rights are.

INGO-tarians tend to take a harsh view of gov't resources going to those who can't otherwise pay for it, though. It's socialism. It's theft. It's wealth redistribution. When the resource is a shooting range, though, well then we can jump through hoops to justify how it's not socialism, how it's not theft, how it's not wealth redistribution. Then it's just getting some of our tax dollars back. Not "forcing the taxpayers of Marion County to provide me with a place to shoot". Search for threads on cooling stations and city parks. You're fairly new here, it might surprise you what you come up with.

 

[MarkC]

I've read through every comment in this thread, and there are good points to be made on both sides. I remember back to the 1970's, when it was a public safety only range. There are legitimate arguments to be made about what is the legitimate role of government, and what is a proper use of government property.

That being said, it is really kid of fishy and creating at least the appearance of bad faith when the TFT's contract is suddenly cancelled, without any explanation. However, having been on the government contracting side of this, I've almost always included a cancellation for the convenience of the state provision is every one I wrote or reviewed.

However, my main point: I think this is yet another indicator of where Indianapolis-Marion County government is headed. My wife and I left Marion County for the 'burbs in 2014, and we resist every effort to "spread the burden" to the donut counties.

 

[eldirector]

Some additional info from here:
The List of Grants | InvestigateWest

Grant ID & Element	Grant Name	Sponsor	County	State	Grant Amount	Year Approved	Year Completed	Type
401 - XXX	EAGLE CREEK FIRING RANGE/GRP PICNIC	INDIANAPOLIS PARK BOARD	MARION	IN	$50,000.00	1981	1985	Development

And about "conversion":
http://www.nps.gov/ncrc/programs/lwcf/protect.html

This section of the Act assures that once an area has been funded with L&WCF assistance, it is continually maintained in public recreation use unless NPS approves substitution property of reasonably equivalent usefulness and location and of at least equal fair market value.

More at that link.