had a scare the other night

[canav844]

Mostly well said, however, show me the IC for "brandishing a firearm".

Well I linked to the ICs and used the term brandishing, that is common language amongst the gun community, to explain the walking around and point the gun all over the yard, both when getting out of the car and coming back out of the house, and in an effort to try and keep as much legal speak out my post as possible. I am not a lawyer and I think it would be good for the OP to do the appropriate research, where it starts to create legal issues, is pointing a firearm at another person, everything from

IC 35-42-2-3
Provocation
Sec. 3. A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally engages in conduct that is likely to provoke a reasonable man to commit battery commits provocation, a Class C infraction. As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.32.

to

IC 35-42-2-2
Criminal recklessness; element of hazing; liability barred for good faith report or judicial participation
Sec. 2. (a) As used in this section, "hazing" means forcing or requiring another person:
(1) with or without the consent of the other person; and
(2) as a condition of association with a group or organization;
to perform an act that creates a substantial risk of bodily injury.
(b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally performs:
(1) an act that creates a substantial risk of bodily injury to another person; or
(2) hazing;
commits criminal recklessness. Except as provided in subsection (c), criminal recklessness is a Class B misdemeanor.
(c) The offense of criminal recklessness as defined in subsection (b) is:
(1) a Class A misdemeanor if the conduct includes the use of a vehicle;
(2) a Class D felony if:
(A) it is committed while armed with a deadly weapon; or
(B) the person committed aggressive driving (as defined in IC 9-21-8-55) that results in serious bodily injury to another person; or
(3) a Class C felony if:
(A) it is committed by shooting a firearm into an inhabited dwelling or other building or place where people are likely to gather; or
(B) the person committed aggressive driving (as defined in IC 9-21-8-55) that results in the death of another person.
(d) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally:
(1) inflicts serious bodily injury on another person; or
(2) performs hazing that results in serious bodily injury to a person;
commits criminal recklessness, a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class C felony if committed by means of a deadly weapon.
(e) A person, other than a person who has committed an offense under this section or a delinquent act that would be an offense under this section if the violator was an adult, who:
(1) makes a report of hazing in good faith;
(2) participates in good faith in a judicial proceeding resulting from a report of hazing;
(3) employs a reporting or participating person described in subdivision (1) or (2); or
(4) supervises a reporting or participating person described in subdivision (1) or (2);
is not liable for civil damages or criminal penalties that might otherwise be imposed because of the report or participation.
(f) A person described in subsection (e)(1) or (e)(2) is presumed to act in good faith.
(g) A person described in subsection (e)(1) or (e)(2) may not be treated as acting in bad faith solely because the person did not have probable cause to believe that a person committed:
(1) an offense under this section; or
(2) a delinquent act that would be an offense under this section if the offender was an adult.

or in the case of the OP not being able to see the target or if the target was a threat, may very well have been in violation of the following, as he knew that something or someone is out there

IC 35-47-4-3
Pointing firearm at another person
Sec. 3. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting within the scope of the law enforcement officer's official duties or to a person who is justified in using reasonable force against another person under:
(1) IC 35-41-3-2; or
(2) IC 35-41-3-3.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally points a firearm at another person commits a Class D felony. However, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if the firearm was not loaded.
As added by P.L.296-1995, SEC.2.

Those are all potential infractions that the OP could find himself facing if he gave this story to an officer after going back out to find someone and confronted them. Which also raises the point about knowing your 5th amendment rights and when to start using them.

 

[armedindy]

honestly, i was pretty sure it was a critter. but i was scared none the less...i didnt really wanna call the cops on a racoon, so i went to check it out...when i found no signs of animals or people i just let it go...but i think im allowed to take my gun with me to check on the boat on our property in the middle of the night..and it was more of a "lets see if someone stole something" than a "im gonna hunt this guy down". plus we keep out garage door open for the dog, so i had to check the garage as well

 

[FatsMcKay]

I have to say this made me chuckle...

I appreciate it. haha

 

[MortifydPenguin]

honestly, i was pretty sure it was a critter. but i was scared none the less...i didnt really wanna call the cops on a racoon, so i went to check it out...when i found no signs of animals or people i just let it go...but i think im allowed to take my gun with me to check on the boat on our property in the middle of the night..and it was more of a "lets see if someone stole something" than a "im gonna hunt this guy down". plus we keep out garage door open for the dog, so i had to check the garage as well

I don't think the problem is you having your gun with you to check things out...it is however using your laser on your gun to see what is going on.

 

[CalebToNowhere]

Get one of these, fits right in your pocket. I've carried one for a couple years now.

http://www.amazon.com/Fenix-Level-High-Performance-Flashlight/dp/B001GAOOFA

I found one like that at the army navy store on 21st street in Indy for $10. Thing works great! I use it all the time while checking powder levels in the loading blocks.

 

[GBuck]

Well I linked to the ICs and used the term brandishing, that is common language amongst the gun community, to explain the walking around and point the gun all over the yard, both when getting out of the car and coming back out of the house, and in an effort to try and keep as much legal speak out my post as possible. I am not a lawyer and I think it would be good for the OP to do the appropriate research, where it starts to create legal issues, is pointing a firearm at another person, everything from
to
or in the case of the OP not being able to see the target or if the target was a threat, may very well have been in violation of the following, as he knew that something or someone is out there
Those are all potential infractions that the OP could find himself facing if he gave this story to an officer after going back out to find someone and confronted them. Which also raises the point about knowing your 5th amendment rights and when to start using them.

I never said that he was totally free and clear of charges if he had ended up shooting "someone". I was just saying 1)there is no such thing as a criminal charge called "brandishing" in Indiana and 2) that your assessment of, "you cannot protect your car from anywhere but in your car, or protect your property from anywhere but inside your home" is wrong and you shouldn't pass it on to the guy asking questions that he doesn't have an answer to.

Of course, you should always be careful, know the law as well as possible, and use your firearm as a last line of defense. You should however, be prepared to use it if the situation arises.

 

[BBSparkle]

honestly, i was pretty sure it was a critter. but i was scared none the less...i didnt really wanna call the cops on a racoon, so i went to check it out...when i found no signs of animals or people i just let it go...but i think im allowed to take my gun with me to check on the boat on our property in the middle of the night..and it was more of a "lets see if someone stole something" than a "im gonna hunt this guy down". plus we keep out garage door open for the dog, so i had to check the garage as well

Pretty sure you can point your gun wherever the hell you want on your own property, noises or not. [as long as it's not at someone not on your property who you have no justification to be drawing on..]

 

[canav844]

One of us is severely misinformed..

What's the misnfortmation, if I'm wrong I'd gladly be corrected so that my actions are reflective of the law

Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
(b) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
(c) With respect to property other than a dwelling, curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
only if that force is justified under subsection (a).
(d) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person and does not have a duty to retreat if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or stop the other person from hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight. For purposes of this subsection, an aircraft is considered to be in flight while the aircraft is:
(1) on the ground in Indiana:
(A) after the doors of the aircraft are closed for takeoff; and
(B) until the aircraft takes off;
(2) in the airspace above Indiana; or
(3) on the ground in Indiana:
(A) after the aircraft lands; and
(B) before the doors of the aircraft are opened after landing.
(e) Notwithstanding subsections (a), (b), and (c), a person is not justified in using force if:
(1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime;
(2) the person provokes unlawful action by another person with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
(3) the person has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person the intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action.
(f) Notwithstanding subsection (d), a person is not justified in using force if the person:
(1) is committing, or is escaping after the commission of, a crime;
(2) provokes unlawful action by another person, with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
(3) continues to combat another person after the other person withdraws from the encounter and communicates the other person's intent to stop hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.1. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.8; Acts 1979, P.L.297, SEC.1; P.L.59-2002, SEC.1; P.L.189-2006, SEC.1.

The car is unoccupied and being in the yard does not make them attempting to enter or attack the dwelling. And the dwelling is limited to the structure

IC 35-41-1-10
"Dwelling"
Sec. 10. "Dwelling" means a building, structure, or other enclosed space, permanent or temporary, movable or fixed, that is a person's home or place of lodging.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.11.

Curtalige is a term defined really only by case law, and not by IC, and I'm not going to reccomend being a test case so unless it's clearly within

A home's 'curtilage' is the area outside the home itself but so close to and intimately connected with the home and the activities that normally go on there that it can reasonably be considered part of the home." United States v. Pace, 898 F.2d 1218, 1228 (7th. Cir. 1990)

but based on the OPs description, running all over the yard with the gun, point the gun into the dark land about, is well beyond curtalige, which is not extended to the property line and outside of the area considered part of the home, had we been talking porch, enclosed patio or similar, then it would be a gray area, but out and about in the yard is not within castle doctrine. And if nothing else I think we've reinforced at this point that it is important to read up on the laws and get the training as it is intricate and frequently changing and being refined with legislative sessions and case law.

If I've got something wrong here by all means point it out, I'd rather take a little bad rep than do time in jail.

 

[armedindy]

..

I don't think the problem is you having your gun with you to check things out...it is however using your laser on your gun to see what is going on.

i can understand that...(just reacted to the situation wrong)

 

[canav844]

I never said that he was totally free and clear of charges if he had ended up shooting "someone". I was just saying 1)there is no such thing as a criminal charge called "brandishing" in Indiana and 2) that your assessment of, "you cannot protect your car from anywhere but in your car, or protect your property from anywhere but inside your home" is wrong and you shouldn't pass it on to the guy asking questions that he doesn't have an answer to.

Of course, you should always be careful, know the law as well as possible, and use your firearm as a last line of defense. You should however, be prepared to use it if the situation arises.

So point one was to correct me on something I did not say. I never said that brandishing was a crime, but that he was brandishing and seeking confrontation with the noise maker, be it racoon or trespasser.

Inside your home, not inside your house, there is a distinction, and it's been made by both appeals courts and the legislature and myself. However if you have something that will backup what I was saying as wrong then by all means, share it with us, but to just sit there and say I'm wrong without supporting your statements it's not doing anything to shape change or modify my understanding of things, and not really helping matters.

 

[MortifydPenguin]

i can understand that...(just reacted to the situation wrong)

I probably would have too...if it weren't for your thread. This is why I love this forum.

And from all this...I do believe I am going to add a flashlight to my EDC.

 

[bigg cheese]

what if all you have is a mounted light????

 

[MortifydPenguin]

I think it would be the same thing. That's why I never really liked the idea of a mounted light.

 

[jetmechG550]

You know how to find things on the internet, right?

never mind you obviously missed the point while you were too busy trying to be a smart ass

 

[bigg cheese]

I think it would be the same thing. That's why I never really liked the idea of a mounted light.

My 1911 has no rails, so I'm not in that boat, but it is just sad that an officer can get away with pointing a gun just to see.

 

[canav844]

I carry a mounted light on my G17, but I'm also carrying a Blackhawk Gladius for an EDC light. Flashlights and weapon lights are different tools with different purposes and uses. The flightlight does the job of a flash light, search scan ID; the TLR weapon light does the job of confirming ID and aiming, and assuring you reach the point that the threat is ended. A light on a gun is a supplement not a replacement, however if needed I can take me EDC light and use it to replace a failed weapon light with a variety of flashlight grips.

The light at the end of the gun by Massad Ayoob Issue #128

 

[24Carat]

DO NOT POINT A FIREARM AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT WISH TO DESTROY. Pointing a firearm into darkness at sounds is violating one of the four basic rules, your finger slips

Your finger slips???? I would suggest you stop handling firearms altogether if your discipline and experience using firearms makes this an even remote chance happening.

what if all you have is a mounted light????

Exactly! Better yet a mounted light and a laser? (I love my G3 G17 with rail and my LaserMax)

I think it would be the same thing. That's why I never really liked the idea of a mounted light.

OK, complicate your life and occupy both of your hands needlessly.

I carry a mounted light on my G17, but I'm also carrying a Blackhawk Gladius for an EDC light. Flashlights and weapon lights are different tools with different purposes and uses. The flightlight does the job of a flash light, search scan ID; the TLR weapon light does the job of confirming ID and aiming, and assuring you reach the point that the threat is ended. A light on a gun is a supplement not a replacement, however if needed I can take me EDC light and use it to replace a failed weapon light with a variety of flashlight grips.

When the weapon light can come off or back on within 2 seconds having your free hand occupied as mentioned before is mute. If pushed I would rather take a two handed grip anytime.

The possibility of a weapon light failing is so remote it isn't even a factor, except in ones mind.

But let's not forget the "Run for cover, call the cops and be a good witness" approach. I'm thinking this tact needs to be adopted by more people that carry.

There are genuine Sheepdogs that have the life experience of high stress functioning and the innate self confidence to perform in a wide variety of scenarios with a firearm. You know who you are. There are Sheep that take the lead to educate and arm themselves and this should be all of our objective. But the mindset and life experience is lacking. I hope to God you also know who you are and tailor your exposure accordingly.

 

[Exodus]

Maybe it's just me (thinking from a jail cell) but my property is mine and it doesn't matter if it's on the other side of 300 acres from my house I'm going to protect/defend what is mine.

 

[4x4]

"i pull out my gun and point the laser into the darkness"

My first thought after reading this was what if Dad was working on the boat? zyou are know pointing a gun at him.

 

[MortifydPenguin]

Your finger slips???? I would suggest you stop handling firearms altogether if your discipline and experience using firearms makes this an even remote chance happening.

If you read that article by Massad Ayoob that was posted you will see him talk about trained SWAT, that under high stress situations UNKNOWINGLY have there finger on the trigger. Even though they are highly trained not to unless they are ready to shoot.

After reading that article I can see the use of a gun mounted light. But it's for when the you have already made your mind up to shoot.

I know I wouldn't want to be searching for what went bump in the night to find myself pointing my gun at my son getting a drink from downstairs


...Matt...