From the ashes at Big Bear

[88GT]

With respect, unclear? Could not be anymore clear.

The dude murdered people including a LEO sitting in his car just prior to the police surrounding the cabin.

You don't have to let the mad dog out of the cage before you shoot it. You kill it in the cage by whatever means you think are best, following the Four Rules.

If the criticism is about endangering innocents with the use of thermite grenades to start a fire, well, I have yet to see that. If there is a concern that we are not aware of then that may change the fact pattern and my conclusion.

If no concern for Rule 4, burn him, shoot him, gas him, send in Chompy and gang, makes no legal difference.

Mad dogs aren't guaranteed trials in courts of law before their lives are snuffed by the state either. I don't have a problem with Dorner's death. It was a foregone conclusion one way or the other. But I do have a problem with justifying the "wanted: dead or dead" hunt by saying that Dorner did really bad things.

Because death before conviction before a trial is the wrong order of events.

Gives new meaning to the "Don't commit a crime" argument, though. Especially in LA.

 

[Denny347]

And he could have changed his mind. (One could argue his attempted exit from the cabin was evidence of such.) LAPD never intended on given him that opportunity.

I may be wrong but LAPD was not involved in the apprehension. You shoot 2 Deputies (one dies) then go into a house and you decide to give up? You will need to make it very clear. As a former police officer he knew 100% how to give up "safely" if he wanted to.

 

[4sarge]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASdauLWH9SQ[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9SWG1f--GY[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7X3pRkRfTg[/ame]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

but if the dude was unconscious from one of his wrecks, deadly force would not have been appropriate.

I concur.

Starving him to death is just as effective as burning him, no?

He just killed another individual and you want the cops to start digging first and second parallels, Chief Vauban?



As you have the cops dig, how many shots out the window will he get?

 

[88GT]

I may be wrong but LAPD was not involved in the apprehension.

Doesn't change the point. There wasn't a LE agency within 100 miles that was interested in making sure he had his day in court if it could happen that way.

 

[T.Lex]

He just killed another individual and you want the cops to start digging first and second parallels, Chief Vauban?

haha

The trench warfare analogy was one of the first things I thought of - although that's not your reference, it is the same idea.

My counterpoint is that, with the cabin comfortably surrounded, the LEOs controlled their own vulnerability. From the limited news sources currently available (and probably ever will be available), I am not convinced that he posed a serious threat at the time they started the fire. That doesn't mean he hadn't been a threat earlier, or might not have become a threat again later.

The LEOs, in their zeal, lost a degree of professionalism IMHO. (Again, based on currently available information, and doesn't include the prior lack of professionalism in shooting up non-suspects.)

To respond to another poster, yes, this is "shoulda/woulda/coulda." But, state-sponsored executions deserves examination. (And this is coming from someone who has been on the receiving end of similar scrutiny, not LEO, but similar.)

 

[Dj15802]

the Police should have laid down their arms in the front yard..Then according to Feinstein his "human nature" would have made him come out and surrender.

 

[the1kidd03]

the Police should have laid down their arms in the front yard..Then according to Feinstein his "human nature" would have made him come out and surrender.

That woman knows exactly about psychology, human nature, sociology, firearms, self-defense, appropriate leadership, ____,_____,.......

fill in the blanks and keep going

 

[Manatee]

California Law Enforcement screwed the pooch on this one.

Did 1000 LEO's need to be within 20 miles of the suspect, barricading roads, searching. Carrying M-16's and M-4's?

Give me 2 or 3 Texas Rangers and we could have got this job done.

1000 LEO's at "the scene". Ridiculous.

 

[Sticks]

Dorner obviously went psycho (for whatever reasons), but that is no excuse to wage war on his co-workers or their families. We can all feel sympathy for those who died as well as their families. Dorner wasn't going to give up, and law enforcement needed to use deadly tactics to bring an end to his killing spree.
What is amazing to me is that one man could go on with this as long as he did. It says something about the ability of law enforcement to "control" the general population.

 

[j706]

California Law Enforcement screwed the pooch on this one.

Did 1000 LEO's need to be within 20 miles of the suspect, barricading roads, searching. Carrying M-16's and M-4's?

Give me 2 or 3 Texas Rangers and we could have got this job done.

1000 LEO's at "the scene". Ridiculous.

Hmmm..it appears that they got the job done that needed done. And hopefully they all got some OT out of it.

 

[phylodog]

Doesn't change the point. There wasn't a LE agency within 100 miles that was interested in making sure he had his day in court if it could happen that way.

I wasn't interested in the dirtbag who shot and killed my friend David Moore getting his day in court either but when he came out of the house, hands in the air and walked toward me I honored my oath and allowed him to surrender.

Doerner had the same opportunity.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

haha

The trench warfare analogy was one of the first things I thought of - although that's not your reference, it is the same idea.

You really didn't think my inner History Major would creep out from time and time?

Besides, how often do I get to make reference to Sebby Vauban?

 

[miguel]

On this topic, Miguel says, "No más!"

 

[j706]

I wasn't interested in the dirtbag who shot and killed my friend David Moore getting his day in court either but when he came out of the house, hands in the air and walked toward me I honored my oath and allowed him to surrender.

A fair number of people on here seem to think that all LEO's are a bunch of trigger happy misfits. In reality they don't have a clue. Unfortunately we will never change their minds.

 

[T.Lex]

A fair number of people on here seem to think that all LEO's are a bunch of trigger happy misfits.

For myself, I believe the vast majority of LEOs in central Indiana are professionals of the highest order.

But, I do happen to think that LAPD is a bunch of trigger happy misfits. I'd even be willing to expand that to most of urban Cali LEOs (or whatever category the San Bernadino Co. sheriff department fits into).

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I think it best to keep the cabin seige on a separate railroad track from the Incident of the Blue Tacoma.

Different forces involved, different types of cops.

 

[slowG]

A man on CNN just compared Chris Dorner to Django and said its exciting. claimed police brutality is to blame.

 

[Hawkeye]

So I guess that buring the hose down is the now accepted standard way of bringing in a suspect? I am amazed at how many people seem to think that this is accpetable.

 

[j706]

For myself, I believe the vast majority of LEOs in central Indiana are professionals of the highest order.

But, I do happen to think that LAPD is a bunch of trigger happy misfits. I'd even be willing to expand that to most of urban Cali LEOs (or whatever category the San Bernadino Co. sheriff department fits into).

I do agree with your first statement. There are and always will be exceptions but the percentage is small IMO. As for LAPD I know absolutely nothing about them. A large percentage of people from that state think a lot different than most people IMO. That no doubt has some effect on their performance.