Excessive Force? This guy needs a lawyer

[HoughMade]

FIFY

My friend, as this is a gun owners forum, not a teen-aged wrong path forum, I think focusing on the shooter's actions is fully appropriate. Hopefully, the forum members would be more likely to be defending their homes, than breaking into homes. Therefore, looking at the "rules" for those who would use guns for defense would seem to be more appropriate.


I'm not going to break into a person's house....I didn't really need this story to convince me of that. The interesting question is not whether they caused their own death....sure they did, but the more salient point for the forum members is the discussion about the shooter's mindset, actions and the consequences.

But hey, if there is some teenager reading this forum on the edge of deciding whether to break into a house or not, I think you've done your part to try to set forth the potential results.

 

[FirstTime]

My friend, as this is a gun owners forum, not a teen-aged wrong path forum, I think focusing on the shooter's actions is fully appropriate. Hopefully, the forum members would be more likely to be defending their homes, than breaking into homes. Therefore, looking at the "rules" for those who would use guns for defense would seem to be more appropriate.


I'm not going to break into a person's house....I didn't really need this story to convince me of that. The interesting question is not whether they caused their own death....sure they did, but the more salient point for the forum members is the discussion about the shooter's mindset, actions and the consequences.

But hey, if there is some teenager reading this forum on the edge of deciding whether to break into a house or not, I think you've done your part to try to set forth the potential results.

Well said... It's pretty cut and dry. In the end a couple of teenagers who were more than likely not trying to physically harm anybody ended up paying the ultimate price by breaking into the home of a man who was obviously mentally unstable. They should have paid a price for their actions but many will agree that they were the ones robbed in the end. However if It were my home I can not say how I would have reacted but Im thinking it would have been slightly different. Kids/people make mistakes.....

 

[wild willy]

A few weeks ago a teenager kicked in this old Italian guys door in and got a little suprise....He shot him in the junk with a .38.

I was heading to work the one morning and there was a cop next to me at a light with a kid in the back....I saw him pull out his phone...He texted me.."The brother in the back got shot in the balls" I laughed my ass off.....Yes I know him

 

[griffin]

the more salient point for the forum members is the discussion about the shooter's mindset, actions and the consequences.

I'm sure without your instruction many here would have erroneously assumed that it was perfectly fine to wound someone, then change guns, shoot them a few more times, then drag them around the house before administering a final execution shot up into the brain. Then, of course, leaving them there until the next day. Plenty of time to inform the authorities after they have a nice, quiet dinner, watch a little TV, and get a good night's rest.

 

[marcum man]

Real Rule no. 1- Don't "finish off" people who are not threats. That's called murder.

+1

 

[ilikeguns]

To shoot an intruder to end a threat: great, all good......... To walk up to a downed intruder who is no longer a threat,place the muzzle of your gun under their chin and deliver "a good clean finishing shot" is,IMO,murder any way you cut it. Self defense and execution are two vastly different things. If you want to be sure to kill an intruder then use an appropriate weapon/round the first time.Someone this cold hearted and clinical about killing ANYONE, let alone a 17yo girl, belongs somehere far away from the rest of society.

 

[Caleb]

stories like this makes me want a shotgun, but idk if that's the best approach for our apartment

 

[griffin]

Guess what? The dead actors have already been tied to more home invasions. Who would have guessed?

Minnesota Teens, Shot During Break-In, Tied to Earlier Burglary - ABC News

Slain Minn. teens tied to earlier burglary

 

[mrjarrell]

Guess what? The dead actors have already been tied to more home invasions. Who would have guessed?

Minnesota Teens, Shot During Break-In, Tied to Earlier Burglary - ABC News

Slain Minn. teens tied to earlier burglary

And it's irrelevant. The guy who shot them went overboard and, in the girls case, committed murder. That's indefensible.

 

[45calibre]

Guess what? The dead actors have already been tied to more home invasions. Who would have guessed?

Minnesota Teens, Shot During Break-In, Tied to Earlier Burglary - ABC News

Slain Minn. teens tied to earlier burglary

but they were popular!

 

[GlockPaperScissors]

And it's irrelevant. The guy who shot them went overboard and, in the girls case, committed murder. That's indefensible.

I don't know... What he did was completely horrible, but at least he didn't allow her to lie there and bleed to death. Considering he waited until the next day to call the authorities, if he didn't shoot her while she was down, she would have lied there and suffered for longer.

Any way you look at it, it's disgusting, and it gives the left more reason to think gun owners are crazy even though the majority of us aren't like that at all.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

Shottie with 00 buck is the way to go at home...

He should not have ever taken those extra "steps"

 

[Kutnupe14]

I find it sad that the laws are written so poorly that this is even a problem. I never really did like how you "have" to contact authorities right away. Your property, your decision on when the right time is to make it public IMO.

The fact that he was trying to lawyer up before calling the cops, shows how sad society has become.

Uh. you cant be serious

 

[deviljunkie]

How do you NOT see that they are unarmed as they walk down the stairs while you are in basement? If no weapon in hand then they are unarmed. Hold them at gunpoint. Bloodshed not neccessary.
Trigger happy fools deserve to goto prison along with the other fools. This mentality is what causes people to shoot their relatives in the wee hours of the night thinking they are burglars.
If you have the nads to shoot a unarmed person, sign up for the military and they will put you somewhere where the other side shoots back. Evens the odds up.

so they are unarmed, would you let them have run of the place then, let them take whatever they wanted because your armed and they arent?

" stop, dont move or ill shoot"" what if they ignore you? you still not gonna shoot?

we will disagree all day on this.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

so they are unarmed, would you let them have run of the place then, let them take whatever they wanted because your armed and they arent?

" stop, dont move or ill shoot"" what if they ignore you? you still not gonna shoot?

we will disagree all day on this.

...and you will lose your argument everytime, if you disagree that he killed them by taking justice into his own hands and executing them versus shooting to stop the threat (hence the reason for using a 12 ga. loaded with 00 buckshot as your primary HD weapon)

 

[deviljunkie]

...and you will lose your argument everytime, if you disagree that he killed them by taking justice into his own hands and executing them versus shooting to stop the threat (hence the reason for using a 12 ga. loaded with 00 buckshot as your primary HD weapon)

no question he was wrong when he killed them as they were already incapacitated, what im arguing is whether he was right to shoot first,perps unarmed, right after they broke into his house. the other guys point is that they where unarmed and shouldnt have been shot. mine is that it doesnt matter,armed or not, they are breaking into a house and got what they had coming. (shot,not the execution part)

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

no question he was wrong when he killed them as they were already incapacitated, what im arguing is whether he was right to shoot first,perps unarmed, right after they broke into his house. the other guys point is that they where unarmed and shouldnt have been shot. mine is that it doesnt matter,armed or not, they are breaking into a house and got what they had coming. (shot,not the execution part)

Okay, sorry...misinterpreted your writing. I would argue that he was in the right to shoot first, since there was a history of break-ins in the home, he was downstairs and heard a window break. Having a castle doctrine in MN, he has the right to shoot to defend. Being that he could be considered elderly, it could be reasoned that he was unsure if they had a weapon or could quickly grab something in the house to use against him. Once the threat was neutralized, he should have stopped. He went "above and beyond" and things went south, unfortunately for him (and the two teens, as they might have lived and possibly learned a lesson), but that gets into hypotheticals.

 

[IN_Sheepdog]

no question he was wrong when he killed them as they were already incapacitated, what im arguing is whether he was right to shoot first,perps unarmed, right after they broke into his house. the other guys point is that they where unarmed and shouldnt have been shot. mine is that it doesnt matter,armed or not, they are breaking into a house and got what they had coming. (shot,not the execution part)

Assuming Minn law is similar to Indiana Castle Doctrine, he was justified in shooting an INTRUDER in his own home if he had a reasonable person's (if that's possible to be said in this guys case what is 'reasonable') fear of his own life... That is, he does not have to determine whether the intruder is armed or not before firing to STOP the Threat. Not likely as it could equally be assumed that someone brazen enough to break into the home of another, would also likely be armed with some type of weapon... It just happens that in this case, they were unarmed.... Imagine:

"Excuse me young man, but as I am armed and am going to shoot, would you please show me any and all weapons you may have at your disposal... including the hammer and other tools which might be located in my workshop. Also can you tell me whether you have other accomplices along with you, and whether they are in fact armed..."

At the moment he fired and they fell down the steps, (incapacitated) that should have been the last of it.... (Stay down, or I will shoot you again...etc) He then should have been on the phone Immediately to inform LE of the burglary and stayed a safe distance away from them... If they got up and made for the door, so be it... Let them go!! the cops would surely find them later... if they made a move toward him, he would be justified in firing again... TO STOP the Threat!!! His actions (at least according to the news accounts) beyond the first shots when they went to the floor are NOT justified...

As to the girl, same circumstances, he likely did not know whether the OTHER intruder was armed or not (or perhaps whether she was male or female), and so therefore the first shot (when coming down the stairs was reasonable) Beyond that, and certainly the "finishing shot" were completely unnecessary, without indication of continued attack.... and changes a self defense situation into a 2nd degree murder ....

I hear the Turkey in Minn is usually served pretty cold in correctional facilities...


Bottom line to all who take upon themselves the grave responsibility to carry a firearm for self defense, to take that responsibility absolutely seriously, be trained as much as you can, and KNOW the law for when to employ the use of deadly force... You don't have to be a lawyer but you darn well better know the laws when it comes to Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy when drawing that weapon from the holster... Or you could be having Turkey dinner courtesy of the IND Dept of Corrections as well.

 

[Mackey]

He only called the cops because it was too hard to jackhammer the concrete to bury the bodies.
I would bet he was debating how to get rid of them before he finally decided to call the cops. Easier to explain if you don't try to bury the bodies.

That text above is fuchsia - not purple.
Fuchsia (color) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I know what purple means .... but not what fuchsia means.

In any event. I was thinking along the same lines. If he's going to be so stupid, why not just go all the way and dump the bodies? What? would it add 20 years to his two life sentences if he got caught?
Obviously the guy is dumb as a box of rocks.

 

[Mark 1911]

Shooter is going to jail. Once the threat is over, your right to shoot is over.