EMS Carry or Not Carry?

[Bill of Rights]

Ah yes HIPAA does apply to us all. Also HIPAA only applies to personal medical information or information that can identify the person. If you tell the officer your patient said they smoked weed an hour ago you didn't disclose any personal information.

But HIPAA also has exemptions here is just a few copied from the HIPAA website:

If an officer suspects my patient of doing something, he's going to have been at the scene to find out who's involved. He can subpoena the ER records for a BA and a UDS. He can subpoena my report for what the patient said and the findings of my assessment. What he can't do is get that info from me.

None of that has anything to do with carrying as an EMS provider, however, nor does it change what I said. If I carry, it's not to enforce laws, it's to save my hind end so I get to go home at the end of the shift, just like when I carry any other time, it's because I know that my pistol can only help me if it's available, not locked in the safe at home.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[stephen87]

If they carry they need to be trained police reserve to carry one and have arrest power in that state and or territory if they need to come down to that. It won't be thier primary but be the back up to what they are put into at the time. It be good for rural/BFE places of EMS but, in city not really

Is this your opinion or a rule for a company that you know? Like I stated before, they cannot mandate training for something that is not required for their job.

 

[elwoodward]

Is this your opinion or a rule for a company that you know? Like I stated before, they cannot mandate training for something that is not required for their job.

A company can mandate anything they want if you want a job their you will follow their policies. In IN labor laws are very open. Be thankful you get a lunch its a privilege according to Federal and state labor laws.

But in a rural area where there is 1 officer on duty at night. Having EMS that is not an officer but is trained to clear a scene and qualify to carry a gun. That alone would help keep pd wait times down for multiple incidents where there is only 1 officer available i for one would like for the officer to be heading to the 911 call about a burglar in a house vs him responding to a suicidal pt when a EMS crew could respond clear the scene/scene safe then treat/transport the patient.

 

[jeremy]

If an officer suspects my patient of doing something, he's going to have been at the scene to find out who's involved. He can subpoena the ER records for a BA and a UDS. He can subpoena my report for what the patient said and the findings of my assessment. What he can't do is get that info from me.

None of that has anything to do with carrying as an EMS provider, however, nor does it change what I said. If I carry, it's not to enforce laws, it's to save my hind end so I get to go home at the end of the shift, just like when I carry any other time, it's because I know that my pistol can only help me if it's available, not locked in the safe at home.

Blessings,
Bill

So what you are saying is it would be for Attendant Safety...

The Officer Safety Line appears to work well for the LEO's....

 

[Hammerhead]

I've trained EMS/EMTs on field work (not the medical side, the situational side) and one of the scenarios that we put the EMTs through was one where they were dispatched to a scene with dangerous elements (attacker still on scene, unknown number, etc.)

The answer to the scenario was to wait, back off, and hope that LEOs came before the patient expired. At least half of the medic "teams" ignored the obvious and let their emotions get the better of them (guy screaming and pleading with them to come help, ended up being the attacker) and they failed hard (oh, look, that guy that was pleading with you, and his accomplice, just came up behind you and slit your throats).

Granted this was a group of trainees and not experienced veteran EMTs. They were all focused on the patient and ignored their SOPs. Now add in the fact that they are armed. Now you've given the bad guys your guns as they search your bodies for drugs, etc. that they called you out for in the first place.

I'm for everyone carrying at all times, however I want to reaffirm that the SOP is to wait for LEO to clear the scene. The ONLY use is for immediate defense of life and limb and ONLY if you must before you reach the location where you're actually doing your job. EMS/EMTs should not be trained/treated as supplemental LEOs unless they are actually LEOs (i.e. SWAT medics).

 

[Bill of Rights]

So what you are saying is it would be for Attendant Safety...

The Officer Safety Line appears to work well for the LEO's....

Yes, Jeremy, that's what I'm saying...

...if that's the only post of mine in the thread that you read.

I thought I was pretty clear upthread when someone suggested putting us in the same group with LE for special exceptions. I said "thanks but no thanks", that I don't want special exceptions. As I've said many times before, I want the unadulterated, uninfringed, Constitutionally-guaranteed RKBA for everyone who is peaceable and law-abiding.

I'm no better or worse than any other good citizen. I want to not be restricted from the means of self defense. I want everyone's rights to be recognized and treated equally under the law. I don't think that special exceptions do that.

"Attendant" safety? No. Personal safety. (and just for the record, we stopped being called "ambulance attendants" some time back around Nixon's/Ford's/Carter's term in the White House.)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

... I'm for everyone carrying at all times, however I want to reaffirm that the SOP is to wait for LEO to clear the scene. The ONLY use is for immediate defense of life and limb and ONLY if you must before you reach the location where you're actually doing your job. EMS/EMTs should not be trained/treated as supplemental LEOs unless they are actually LEOs (i.e. SWAT medics).

^^All of this. If I carry, I don't do it as a medic and I sure as hell don't do it as a cop. If I carry, I do it as a citizen, I have the responsibility for my own safety and don't abdicate that to someone else just because I'm on duty. The law at present doesn't recognize the right to take responsibility on oneself in all places unless one's work uniform includes a badge. The law is wrong and needs changed.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Cam]

As a Paramedic of 16 years, I have read this thread with great interest. All I will offer that hasn't already been said is this;

All of you who honestly believe you just sit outside and wait for the police to come clear the scene have quite obviously never gone into what appeared to be a docile, non-threatening scene and had it explode in your face. I have been on a scene where I caught a right hook from a bystander RIGHT IN FRONT OF AN OFFICER. It happens anywhere, anytime. I've been teaching EMT and Paramedic classes for the last 12 years. I don't only teach situational awareness in this section of class, I also stress heavily to listen to that little voice in your head and the feeling in your gut that something is wrong. Looking at a scene as you drive up on it or making your decision solely based off of dispatch information is hard to do. Especially when the call is something as simple as "difficulty breathing". I've been in the situation where the patient who is having this difficulty breathing was a 4 year old. Dad didn't think I was moving fast enough and, suffice to say, decided he was going to "help me along" with my treating his son.

I don't know if having a weapon would help a situation like that or not, parents do strange things when their children are sick. I have been in situations where a weapon would have made a difference if for nothing more than to quell the events taking place so that I could get the hell out of there.

My point is that you truly NEVER know if a scene is safe or not. The question then becomes what this thread is all about...

 

[shibumiseeker]

As a Paramedic of 16 years, I have read this thread with great interest. All I will offer that hasn't already been said is this;

All of you who honestly believe you just sit outside and wait for the police to come clear the scene have quite obviously never gone into what appeared to be a docile, non-threatening scene and had it explode in your face. I have been on a scene where I caught a right hook from a bystander RIGHT IN FRONT OF AN OFFICER. It happens anywhere, anytime. I've been teaching EMT and Paramedic classes for the last 12 years. I don't only teach situational awareness in this section of class, I also stress heavily to listen to that little voice in your head and the feeling in your gut that something is wrong. Looking at a scene as you drive up on it or making your decision solely based off of dispatch information is hard to do. Especially when the call is something as simple as "difficulty breathing". I've been in the situation where the patient who is having this difficulty breathing was a 4 year old. Dad didn't think I was moving fast enough and, suffice to say, decided he was going to "help me along" with my treating his son.

I don't know if having a weapon would help a situation like that or not, parents do strange things when their children are sick. I have been in situations where a weapon would have made a difference if for nothing more than to quell the events taking place so that I could get the hell out of there.

My point is that you truly NEVER know if a scene is safe or not. The question then becomes what this thread is all about...

I think every experienced EMT has had a scene that looked fine turn ugly without warning. Whether it was because bad guys lurking about or because there were environmental or hazmat dangers that weren't apparent from outside or an enraged parent who gets violent when you are treating their child and the child screams as you are treating them.

Moreover, we are also between a rock and a hard place aside from the inclination to rush in to help someone. Answering in court why you let someone die when you were within sight of them as they were bleeding out or whatever, and you say "the scene just didn't 'feel' right" isn't going to buy you much protection, and we all know it.

I've said it many times in the past, *I* am the only person who has a vested interest in keeping me safe and I don't give a rats ass if it is company policy or not, *I* get to make the decision on how best to protect myself. The company doesn't care about me at all, they just care about their bottom dollar.

 

[Cam]

I think every experienced EMT has had a scene that looked fine turn ugly without warning. Whether it was because bad guys lurking about or because there were environmental or hazmat dangers that weren't apparent from outside or an enraged parent who gets violent when you are treating their child and the child screams as you are treating them.

Moreover, we are also between a rock and a hard place aside from the inclination to rush in to help someone. Answering in court why you let someone die when you were within sight of them as they were bleeding out or whatever, and you say "the scene just didn't 'feel' right" isn't going to buy you much protection, and we all know it.

I've said it many times in the past, *I* am the only person who has a vested interest in keeping me safe and I don't give a rats ass if it is company policy or not, *I* get to make the decision on how best to protect myself. The company doesn't care about me at all, they just care about their bottom dollar.

Agreed! The sentence in bold above is what I think folks that either have never been there (yet) or completely buy into what the textbooks call "scene safety" don't understand. Your statement that I am the only person with a vested interest in my safety, is dead on. I do think that, unfortunately, the world we live and work in has become something that needs to allow us to protect our vested interests.

 

[MangoTango]

I've said it many times in the past, *I* am the only person who has a vested interest in keeping me safe and I don't give a rats ass if it is company policy or not, *I* get to make the decision on how best to protect myself. The company doesn't care about me at all, they just care about their bottom dollar.

I totally agree with this. That being said i think this thread is very important in just making people think about why they carry and when to pull their weapon. As a medic or EMT I would keep my weapon (gun, knife etc) confidential, practice or talk through various scenarios with a confidant, and only draw to protect my own behind or my partner. It is tough, we go into this with the idea of helping others, it is very hard at times to stand back but after many years I have realized that just because it is potentially my patients worst day of their lives I don't need to make it me or my families worst day. I was a cowboy before I had a little one at home. Now not so much. I have matured a lot in my thinking but matured is not a great word because it makes it seems like my decisions now have more merit but it is more on where my responsibilities lie. It may swing back to defender of all but right now my gun is to protect me, my family and friends. I am a firm believer in the right to bear arm but just wanted to highlight some of the nuances of carrying as a first responder and some of the additional things to consider. God Bless all of the first responders because the job is getting harder-STAY SAFE.

 

[sbcman]

I worked in emergency services years ago. I never considered carrying and thankfully always had Deputies or State Police to clear/handle known problematic situations and never found myself in a bad one. Maybe this will help.

New Licenses:
EMT-B/CC
EMT-B/OC

EMT-P/CC
EMT-P/OC

If not guns, maybe tasers could be used. The manufacturer would just need to rename them "DMPNF" (Device for Mobile Patients Needing Fibrillation).

 

[joekoug]

I worked in emergency services years ago. I never considered carrying and thankfully always had Deputies or State Police to clear/handle known problematic situations and never found myself in a bad one. Maybe this will help.

New Licenses:
EMT-B/CC
EMT-B/OC

EMT-P/CC
EMT-P/OC

If not guns, maybe tasers could be used. The manufacturer would just need to rename them "DMPNF" (Device for Mobile Patients Needing Fibrillation).

 

[ol' poke]

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New Licenses:
EMT-B/CC
EMT-B/OC
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QUOTE]


Can't I just staple mine together? EMT-B/LTCH

ol' poke

 

[Randrayla]

When I took my EMT class, I asked my instructor if he carried while working for Wishard. His anwser was "No never" while shaking his head yes.

He said at one point in his carear he was in a house with his partner and someones grandma had died. He told the grandson that they had done all they could but she was gone. The grandsonson pulled out a 6 inch barreled 357 and put it to his partners head. Told him to fix grandma or they were going to die. He hit the emergency button on his radio. Eventually he was able to convince the guy that he needed some meds out of the ambulance. When he went outside there were about 50 cops waiting and they ended up storming the house. Everyone came out safely.

I really think EMTs should be able to carry if they desire to. Especially in Indianapolis where they are frequently dispatched out alone. In small towns the police will often show up on EMS calls just to help out if needed.

 

[Somemedic]

I wish they would allow vests. I've done a few assists to Gary.FD and would have been more comfortable having at least that available. Chief says no. He would lose gis mind at the thought of a few of us carrying.

I do think the cities would love to get a hold of the idea of combining police fire and ems. A proposal Luke this would give them ammo if not approached properly

 

[lrahm]

The whole idea behind an EMT is to save lives. Unfortunately some of the situations that they are placed in are dangerous. Either by miscommunication or lack of communication EMTs can be placed in a situation where police are needed ASAP. I have given one or two of my old balistic vests to some of our EMTs. Yes, I know that they might be out of date but still functionable. Like some of the older posts, some of the EMTs should just stick to their job. I know some members on this site I would trust. Wearing a vest, should be up to the EMT, it is not an offensive tool. But all facts given, it is up to the holding company to make the decision to carry or not.

 

[hopper68]

What about the time sitting at the ambulance barn waiting on calls. A little over 10 years ago 2 Pike County EMTs were murdered at the Pike county ambulance barn. A fellow emt afraid of getting fired came in and shot them. I have always wondered if he would have even tried if the one had had his pistol with him.

side note: here is a good read related to ems/fire dept
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