Effective Instructor: "Combat" Experience Required?

[cedartop]

This is why I recommended first looking at the instructors working with Alias. All of them have reputations that can be verified and there are numerous discussions about their courses online to include AARs from people of all experience levels from first class attendees to agency SWAT teams.

Nationally successful private instructors are successful because they have made that transition from teaching the captive military students to the private citizen and agencies that can choose where to spend their money.

Larry Vickers, Howe, MacNamara, Defoore, etc are successful for a reason.

From there, the student is free to go as far down the rabbit hole as they choose.

How many of these guys have you trained with? I am curious to see if you think any are significantly better than the others. As soon as I can get the time to get it wrote upcoming I will put up an AAR of my latest Alias class.

 

[Rob377]

Science has literally been thrown under the bus.

 

[David Rose]

You got me there.

 

[David Rose]

I kinda figured a snarky comment like that was the closest thing to a real answer I would get.

 

[Rob377]

You're clearly not interested in a real response, since you know science better than anyone and everyone else is a science denier. :laughing:

 

[David Rose]

You're clearly not interested in a real response, since you know science better than anyone and everyone else is a science denier. :laughing:

Still begging for a real response.

 

[rhino]

How many of these guys have you trained with? I am curious to see if you think any are significantly better than the others. As soon as I can get the time to get it wrote upcoming I will put up an AAR of my latest Alias class.

I'd really like to train with most of those guys, especially Larry Vickers. Pat McNamara kind of scares me. I think he'd slap me and send me home the first day for being fat and lazy.

I think one of the reasons so many of the ex-Army SF and Delta guys are good trainers is because that skill is has been an integral part of their job in SF since their inception (I don't know whether that is true for SEALs and other SOC organizations). Learning to train local people from every conceivable background is definitely going to help prepare someone to relate to American civilians. It won't guarantee all of them can do it effectively, but it certainly stacks the deck more than those who do not share the same training and experience.

One of our ACT team mates was in the SF 10th Group for 20 years. He told me a lot about training people in various parts of the world and I know that contributed to the teaching ability he has today (he's GOOD).

 

[Streck-Fu]

What happens when two people on the approved list disagree. Is one of them having a hard time reading his secret decoder ring?

Go back and read my posts again. I even mention the reality that some instructors cover techniques or tactics that work in some situations and not others. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

This is why taking classes from more than one instructor is ideal. You will find one that is aligned with what is comfortable to you.

As for the rest of your post, you are being intentionally obtuse. Don't take that attitude into any class if you want to be successful.

 

[Streck-Fu]

I kinda figured a snarky comment like that was the closest thing to a real answer I would get.

You post snarky and then complain when you get it back?

 

[iChokePeople]

I'd really like to train with most of those guys, especially Larry Vickers. Pat McNamara kind of scares me. I think he'd slap me and send me home the first day for being fat and lazy.

I think one of the reasons so many of the ex-Army SF and Delta guys are good trainers is because that skill is has been an integral part of their job in SF since their inception (I don't know whether that is true for SEALs and other SOC organizations).

Ex-SF guys (using the term very precisely to mean US Army 18s) are typically pretty strong in teaching because it's a large part of their mission, in most cases. Many, maybe even most, have been through instructor training, and the ones who haven't have seen a lot of good teachers from whom to draw teaching examples. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other special ops-type unit that does so much teaching and training as part of their mission.

 

[rhino]

Ex-SF guys (using the term very precisely to mean US Army 18s) are typically pretty strong in teaching because it's a large part of their mission, in most cases. Many, maybe even most, have been through instructor training, and the ones who haven't have seen a lot of good teachers from whom to draw teaching examples. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other special ops-type unit that does so much teaching and training as part of their mission.

That's what I thought!

As you know, I'm a fat, lazy civilian. It's my understanding that Special Forces = Green Beret, correct? Is that what US Army 18s also means?

 

[David Rose]

You post snarky and then complain when you get it back?

One was off topic and without meaning.

 

[iChokePeople]

That's what I thought!

As you know, I'm a fat, lazy civilian. It's my understanding that Special Forces = Green Beret, correct? Is that what US Army 18s also means?

Correct. I just wanted to be clear that I was using the term correctly/precisely, as opposed to the more generic (and incorrect) usage commonly seen.

ETA: Just to be clear, you may also see some former Rangers, SEALs, Delta guys, etc, who may be excellent instructors, but it will tend to be less consistent simply because it's not such a large part of their mission and because MANY of them will not have done it -- especially Rangers. You may find a guy who was a career Ranger who taught thousands of hours and is superb, but you may also get guys who did one tour in a Bn as an E-4 and never taught anything. And, of course, neither will be a guarantee of teaching skill, or lack of it.

 

[Streck-Fu]

I'd really like to train with most of those guys, especially Larry Vickers. Pat McNamara kind of scares me. I think he'd slap me and send me home the first day for being fat and lazy.

LAV is on my short list. I have not trained with him but have spoken with several people that have. I hear he is great at helping with pistol marksmanship and I'd like to see how he teaches it. Hackathorn is another and he won't be teaching much longer.

I attend Mac's TAPS class a couple years ago; while he looks scary, he is very approachable and entertaining. Tells some great stories and makes you think about your tactics. He seems to really appreciate his students (even civilians) as better trained citizens makes everyone safer. Just don't expect him to spend much time with individuals on fine skills. It's not that kind of class.

I took his class when Paul (of Alias) was with Grey Group and got lucky in that they had a videographer attend so I have video of all of Mac's discussions and lesson. Makes for a great review.

 

[Streck-Fu]

Ex-SF guys (using the term very precisely to mean US Army 18s) are typically pretty strong in teaching because it's a large part of their mission, in most cases. Many, maybe even most, have been through instructor training, and the ones who haven't have seen a lot of good teachers from whom to draw teaching examples. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other special ops-type unit that does so much teaching and training as part of their mission.

I agree with this completely. Great point on the SF mission of teaching.

Many (not all) at some point have had to teach skills to people that may be barely literate in their own language and have minimal skills in subjects like math much less firing solutions. If they can break it down to a level they can understand, your average American high school grad is no problem.

As I mentioned, a great example that is on the opposite side of that coin is Kyle Defoor who is a former SEAL. In a very good interview, he openly admits that he didn't become really good at shooting until he started teaching. As they developed the instruction at Blackwater in the early days, there was rapid evolution of his ability as an instructor. It was process of working with others and a lot of self evaluation to find what worked best.

So while the former SF had instruction as a mission, many others had to develop it.

I was an instructor in the Navy and went through curriculum development so I fully admit to biased preference for military instructors.

More to your point on sematics:
SF = Army Special Forces
SOF = Special Operations Forces (generic all encompassing term for SOF when not identified).

 

[rhino]

Correct. I just wanted to be clear that I was using the term correctly/precisely, as opposed to the more generic (and incorrect) usage commonly seen.

ETA: Just to be clear, you may also see some former Rangers, SEALs, Delta guys, etc, who may be excellent instructors, but it will tend to be less consistent simply because it's not such a large part of their mission and because MANY of them will not have done it -- especially Rangers. You may find a guy who was a career Ranger who taught thousands of hours and is superb, but you may also get guys who did one tour in a Bn as an E-4 and never taught anything. And, of course, neither will be a guarantee of teaching skill, or lack of it.

I read/hear a lot of people use the term "special forces" to refer to a variety of units when they probably mean "special operations units", but I try to use it specifically and as correctly as I can on those rare occasions when I have to use it in a sentence.

LAV is on my short list. I have not trained with him but have spoken with several people that have. I hear he is great at helping with pistol marksmanship and I'd like to see how he teaches it. Hackathorn is another and he won't be teaching much longer.

I attend Mac's TAPS class a couple years ago; while he looks scary, he is very approachable and entertaining. Tells some great stories and makes you think about your tactics. He seems to really appreciate his students (even civilians) as better trained citizens makes everyone safer. Just don't expect him to spend much time with individuals on fine skills. It's not that kind of class.

I took his class when Paul (of Alias) was with Grey Group and got lucky in that they had a videographer attend so I have video of all of Mac's discussions and lesson. Makes for a great review.

One of the things I really like about LAV and Pat McNamara (and a few others) is that they acknowledge what competition shooting (specifically USPSA) and their relationships with competitive shooters has done to improve their shooting and gun handling skills. They don't parrot the "IPSC will get you KILLED!" mantra (for good reason).

I'm still afraid of McNamara. I know I should probably be just as afraid of LAV if I'm going to be that way, but he's chubby. And jolly. Hah!

I agree with this completely. Great point on the SF mission of teaching.

Many (not all) at some point have had to teach skills to people that may be barely literate in their own language and have minimal skills in subjects like math much less firing solutions. If they can break it down to a level they can understand, your average American high school grad is no problem.

As I mentioned, a great example that is on the opposite side of that coin is Kyle Defoor who is a former SEAL. In a very good interview, he openly admits that he didn't become really good at shooting until he started teaching. As they developed the instruction at Blackwater in the early days, there was rapid evolution of his ability as an instructor. It was process of working with others and a lot of self evaluation to find what worked best.

So while the former SF had instruction as a mission, many others had to develop it.

I was an instructor in the Navy and went through curriculum development so I fully admit to biased preference for military instructors.

More to your point on sematics:
SF = Army Special Forces
SOF = Special Operations Forces (generic all encompassing term for SOF when not identified).

You can actually see a difference in Kyle DeFoor's presentation from current video and tv shows to tv shows he did a few years ago. He has improved!

 

[the1kidd03]

They don't parrot the "IPSC will get you KILLED!" mantra (for good reason).

Can you think of any professional trainers who actually do?

 

[rhino]

Can you think of any professional trainers who actually do?

Depends on how you define professional trainers, but yes.

It also depends on the time frame. I have some good friends who pushed a sentiment similar to that for a long time and generally denigrated competition shooting and those who do it, partly because their mentor did. I don't hear as much about it anymore.

 

[Streck-Fu]

I'm still afraid of McNamara. I know I should probably be just as afraid of LAV if I'm going to be that way, but he's chubby. And jolly. Ha

Some time ago, LAV posted online a picture of himself from the mid-90s when he was in Bosnia. Though thinner than now, he looked a bit soft for what one would expect from someone in his position.

Contrast that with Mac whose daughter posted a picture of him from many years ago to Facebook on father's day in which he is the image of a Special Forces warrior with the steely eyed stare and bulging muscles but he is holding the two golden lab puppies he bought for his kids....

Perception and reality.

 

[rhino]

Some time ago, LAV posted online a picture of himself from the mid-90s when he was in Bosnia. Though thinner than now, he looked a bit soft for what one would expect from someone in his position.

Contrast that with Mac whose daughter posted a picture of him from many years ago to Facebook on father's day in which he is the image of a Special Forces warrior with the steely eyed stare and bulging muscles but he is holding the two golden lab puppies he bought for his kids....

Perception and reality.

My irrational brain tells me that it would hurt less to be dispatched by a chubby, jolly soldier than to be dispatched by the steely-eyed staring, muscle bulging soldier.