DRUG AND ALCOHOL CHARGES AND YOUR LTCH. UPDATE>

[eatsnopaste]

isn't this discussion why "shall not be infringed" is infringed more and more? We all say that we need to go by the Constitution but then we argue about whether it is ok to revoke or suspend it for breaking a State statute...sounds like it's ok as long as it doesn't interfere with personal beliefs.

 

[level.eleven]

isn't this discussion why "shall not be infringed" is infringed more and more? We all say that we need to go by the Constitution but then we argue about whether it is ok to revoke or suspend it for breaking a State statute...sounds like it's ok as long as it doesn't interfere with personal beliefs.

Thats a very good point. I've always been under the impression that if you commit a crime, are sentenced, and fulfill your sentence, your debt to society has been paid. However, this person is now no longer legally allowed to protect himself or his family. He has two choices, hope for the best and abide by a law that seemingly robs him of what many belief is a natural right, or break the law and illegally carry a firearm for his own defense. If the people released from jail or convicted of felony are so dangerous that they cannot file for a LTCH, why were they released in the first place?

An interesting example that I have been thinking about, is Michael Vick. Vick was convicted of a crime that did not directly cause harm to a person or a person's property. Its not unreasonable to think that a few of Vick's buddies were implicated along with him or he was pressured to name names. There very well could be quite a few people with a score to settle with Vick. Even though he coporated with the investigation, and served the sentence awarded to him by a jury of his peers, he is released not as a man equal to those around him, but as a man without the right to legally defend himself with a firearm.

 

[ATF Consumer]

..."Shall not be infringed" says it all...
Drug or alcohol use should not disqualify someone from owning a firearm...it has NEVER(to my knowledge) disqualified someone from owning a vehicle, so why a firearm?
Think about "Shall not be infringed" and then try to logically come up with your justifiable reasons to infringe.

isn't this discussion why "shall not be infringed" is infringed more and more? We all say that we need to go by the Constitution but then we argue about whether it is ok to revoke or suspend it for breaking a State statute...sounds like it's ok as long as it doesn't interfere with personal beliefs.

 

[wally05]

If you do this from a religious perspective, everyone has probably broken some law in their lifetime, so no one is innocent and therefore everything was a criminal at some time. Let's be honest here.

I agree with an earlier post about your debt paid to society. Personally, I think a lifetime DQ is pretty ridiculous and when you have another person deciding someone's fate, I get irritated. It's a complex problem. Whether it's alcohol, drugs, u-turns, whatever, everyone has screwed up, so what is the criteria where one person has screwed up "too bad" and where someone hasn't done something bad enough to be punished and not get a LTCH. I'm a believer that the system is flawed on many levels with this, but we work with it.

 

[wally05]

yep... exactly.

..."Shall not be infringed" says it all...
Drug or alcohol use should not disqualify someone from owning a firearm...it has NEVER(to my knowledge) disqualified someone from owning a vehicle, so why a firearm?
Think about "Shall not be infringed" and then try to logically come up with your justifiable reasons to infringe.

 

[jayhawk]

isn't this discussion why "shall not be infringed" is infringed more and more? We all say that we need to go by the Constitution but then we argue about whether it is ok to revoke or suspend it for breaking a State statute...sounds like it's ok as long as it doesn't interfere with personal beliefs.

Except that this discussion applies to the LTCH and the LTCH is a state permit. You're talking about a much broader issue, which can obviously be discussed at great length.

 

[IndyBeerman]

+ 1 .08 or what ever it is now isn't much. when the limit was .12 you wad a pretty good idea you were impared if you didn't know you were. at .08 you could know you are fine and then find out you are wrong.

I'm sure that the impaired level was never .12, it was .10 before being lowered to .08.

Also remember that it is the officers discretion that depending on how much time has lapsed, a .06 or .07 will get you a free night in jail and a court date. Heck if you get pulled over while driving a commercial vehicle with a CDL and you blow a .02 it's by by time.

This all is a fine line gray area, do you lump marijuana (could be a felony or a misdemeanor depending on cause) in with Meth, (believe that's a outright felony) and tag it along with DUI which can go both ways.

I feel a felony drug possession (quantity, manufacturing or intent to sell) gets no more than a 15 year ban after sentence served, get anything more than a speeding ticket in that time and it's a lifetime ban. Proved you can be a respectful law abiding citizen then a review on a case by case basis can be made.

Come to think of this whole thing, is it or is it not, if you are a felon, you are prohibited from owing or possessing ANY firearm?

 

[jedi]

Except that this discussion applies to the LTCH and the LTCH is a state permit. You're talking about a much broader issue, which can obviously be discussed at great length.

True this is a 'state issue' but the ability defend yourself with an "arm" is not a right or law or state statue but something that superceeds all of that. The simple fact that you are alive and breath is all that is needed in order to be able to defend yourself. As such no entity (federal, state, local, other person) has the "right" to deny you of your ability to defend yourself.

So LTCH, gun permits, gun classes, gun registration, etc.. are al worthless since they ar trying to limit something which they have no control over.

In an extreme case thing of the air you breath. What if the State of IN or I6BO try to pass a law that says you can only breath 20 "units" of air per day. How illogical is that since nobody can take away your 'right' to air? Just like nobody can take your right to defend yourself. You live therefore you can defend yourself. PERIOD!

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

My opinion is that people with a LTCH should be squeaky clean. Getting a LTCH should be akin to getting a "good honest upstanding citizen award" from our state. Having that little pink card should be a symbol to others that you are a good guy.

+ 1 , The only other thing I would add is IMO , every last one of us should have to pass a psych eval first .

 

[Serial Crusher]

I agree with In Betts, having many things that restrict you from having an LTCH means that just tightening those laws is all it takes to restrict carry. Adding things like a psych evaluation means it would be even easier to restrict who does and does not carry. Before you applaud, think of the largest group who could be de facto excluded: veterans. Anyone who has done a hitch overseas could be labeled a victim of combat stress and disallowed.

As far as alcohol and drug charges, those two things have become a money factory for the government and law enforcement, and the numbers reflect that. Heavy fines, probation and court costs, and fees for state sponsored counseling mean that the government takes in $3000+ for every DUI. Anywhere the government attempts to legislate morality, as opposed to punish criminals, the end result is coercion. A great example are seatbelt laws, in the most charitable terms, they are a flimsy pretext to skirt the Fourth Amendment. The government is not and should not be responsible for my decisions' effects on my own safety. It is when my decision effects others that the government is called to action. I have very serious doubts that anyone has ever been injured by a human body ejected from a vehicle and so in the end the government is dictating decisions that effect only me.

If anyone not in prison or police custody were allowed to carry any legally possessed weapon, criminals would think long and hard before committing any violent transgression. As far as lunatics and mass murderers, like it or not, there is virtually no preventing them. This fact is witnessed by murders all over the globe, where something other than a firearm is used, such as vehicle assaults in Japan. In Germany, it is common enough to have a name, a gheistenfahrer is a "ghost driver" who intentionally drives the wrong way on an autobahn. These people have no regard for their own safety and are simply trying to take as many people with them as they can.

 

[Turtle]

Only for violent offenses should be stripped of the "right" to self preservation. Felony? too many non violent things fall under this category.

We are all born with a god given right to defend ourselves. I dont care if you sold crack to Michael Jackson. Unless you are a violent danger to society you have the right to own a gun, sword,club or knife or any other weapon to protect ones self or ones family and home.

And this whole legal drugs versus illegal drugs argument only brings out the dumbest people and the most retarded comments.
Everything is a drug and we are all druggies. If yo drink soda your a double druggie! Coffee too!

Legal drugs
Pain pills <over doses lost 2 cousins in 2 years over these!
xanex
sugar <obesity
anti-depressants.
caffeine <nervous problems
nicotine < lung cancer,
any thing a doctor gives you!
alcohol <car crashes, violence, poverty, war, crime,
Speeder pills < these have caused heart attacks
power drinks < these have caused heart attacks
and many more

Illegal drugs
marijuana < has harmed no one, Smoked by over half of or presidents and grown by our founding fathers, has uses in medicine and comforting the sick and dying. Is all natural and the longest and most widely used medicine in the world!
Banned in the 30's buy a politician wanting to use trees for paper (he owned the trees and the paper factory). We have almost destroyed the rain forest keeping hemp illegal.

Meth < addicts and kills
crack < addicts and kills
LSD < suicide due to thinking they could fly.
Flippy floppers < deadly (I have no clue what other drugs there are...lol)

 

[techres]

I think it is simple. There are two kinds of Americans:

1. Citizens.
2. Inmates.

The first cannot be infringed.
The second can, for the duration of his punishment.
The second, when done with his punishment becomes one of the first again.

It is just that simple.

Don't want them to be citizens, don't let them out from being inmates.
If they have served their time as inmates and are done (including parole), then they are citizens once again.

Otherwise all you do is dilute the essence and power of what "citizen" means to the point that no one understands it anymore...

 

[Turtle]

I think it is simple. There are two kinds of Americans:

1. Citizens.
2. Inmates.

The first cannot be infringed.
The second can, for the duration of his punishment.
The second, when done with his punishment becomes one of the first again.

It is just that simple.

Don't want them to be citizens, don't let them out from being inmates.
If they have served their time as inmates and are done (including parole), then they are citizens once again.

Otherwise all you do is dilute the essence and power of what "citizen" means to the point that no one understands it anymore...

Just how it should be. If you sold michael jackson crack and did your time felony or not your punishment is over and you should have ALL of your rights back including the right to own and carry a firearm for self defense.

 

[42769vette]

I'm sure that the impaired level was never .12, it was .10 before being lowered to .08.

i stand corrected. i wasn't 100% sure what it usto be when typing. imo .08 is to low

 

[j706]

i stand corrected. i wasn't 100% sure what it usto be when typing. imo .08 is to low

Far to many people think OWI or DUI is all about alcohol. OWI is enforceable for alcohol,as well as ANY drug including marijuana. A driver smoking marijuana is harder for most officers to detect so many skate by. A stoned driver is just as guilty of OWI than a drunk one. Remember the elements of the OWI crime-1) Impaired 2) in control of ANY thing used for moving a person on or in land,air or water. IE-Horse,bicycle,moped,riding mower,boat,airplane or just about anything else to move you. Something worth noting IMO.

 

[42769vette]

Far to many people think OWI or DUI is all about alcohol. OWI is enforceable for alcohol,as well as ANY drug including marijuana. A driver smoking marijuana is harder for most officers to detect so many skate by. A stoned driver is just as guility of OWI than a drunk one. Remember the elements of the OWI crime-1) Impaired 2) in control of ANY covance used for land,air or water. IE-Horse,bicycle,moped,riding mower,boat,airplane or just about anything else to move you. SOmething worth noting IMO.

are you saying that i/we can get a owi on anything? for instance i live in the country and we have a strip we mow about 1/4 mile or so of road side. if i drink a case of beer and mow can i get owi

 

[Chefcook]

There is a waiting period after misdemeanor alcohol or drug convictions in the form of probation. Typically 1 year probation follows these misdemeanor charges. While on probation it is unlawful for the person on probation to possess any weapons of any kind, not even a hunting knife. This however does not mean you cant own them but, that you can not possess them or store them on your premises. In other words if you get a DUI, while on probation you have to give your firearms to a family member or friend to keep for you until your probationary period is up. Also your LTCH is void during this time even if it is never rescinded. You may or may not have to renew it after probation depending on rather or not they catch it, they often do not, unless weapons possession is part of the original case file.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

They nice ladies in the firearms licensing department have informed me of their policy on denying permits in relation to drug and alcohol charges.

They will allow (misdemeanors or lesser charges, of course);

no more than one alcohol related charge
no more than one drug related charge

two of either will give you a possible five year D.Q.

one of each apparently does not affect you.

Now I'm sure that this is just a gray line. Id put my money on them saying no to someone who has a meth charge.

The nice ladies were wrong, according to indiana code.
Alcohol 2(or more) one of which in the last 3 years.
Drugs 2(or more) one of which in the last 5 years.
Indiana Code 35-47-1
IC 35-47-1-2
"Alcohol abuser"
Sec. 2. "Alcohol abuser" means an individual who has had two (2) or more alcohol related offenses, any one (1) of which resulted in conviction by a court or treatment in an alcohol abuse facility within three (3) years prior to the date of the application.

IC 35-47-1-4
"Drug abuser"
Sec. 4. "Drug abuser" means an individual who has had two (2) or more violations of IC 35-48-1, IC 35-48-2, IC 35-48-3, or IC 35-48-4, any one (1) of which resulted in conviction by a court or treatment in a drug abuse facility within five (5) years prior to the date of application.

And if the Meth convictions a misdemeanor(no idea if there is such a critter) they have no legal basis for denying, except for the above code.

I think it is simple. There are two kinds of Americans:

1. Citizens.
2. Inmates.

The first cannot be infringed.
The second can, for the duration of his punishment.
The second, when done with his punishment becomes one of the first again.

It is just that simple.

Don't want them to be citizens, don't let them out from being inmates.
If they have served their time as inmates and are done (including parole), then they are citizens once again.

Otherwise all you do is dilute the essence and power of what "citizen" means to the point that no one understands it anymore...

+1

are you saying that i/we can get a owi on anything? for instance i live in the country and we have a strip we mow about 1/4 mile or so of road side. if i drink a case of beer and mow can i get owi

Yes that is what he is saying, you can get a dui on a riding mower. There was at least one arrest for it on a persons own property but the charge was eventually dismissed for lack of probable cause. The officer did not see him on the lawnmower. This was not in IN though.
DUI Arrest, Lawnmower Accident

 

[j706]

are you saying that i/we can get a owi on anything? for instance i live in the country and we have a strip we mow about 1/4 mile or so of road side. if i drink a case of beer and mow can i get owi

Technically yes,realistically probably not. OWI is enforceable on pvt and well as public property.

 

[Bluehazemay]

To throw another out there for you all, to give a good example ---- I have to wait the 5 years before my permit can be obtained. This was not due to a drug or alcohol related charge but due to I was attempting to take my unloaded pistol to the range. I did everything safety wise buy locking the gun and the ammo separate ( gun in locked console unloaded and no mag and ammo locked in tool box in the trunk). The officer still arrested me for Class A misdemeanor - Hand Gun without a Permit, he was not rude nor did I wish to **** him off but was stated it is illegal. Because of the so called NO TOLERANCE law on this very small charge I have to wait until aug 27 of 2011 before I can even apply again. Funny part I like is - Class A misdemeanor Charges are only normally Punishment up to 1 year but you still have 4 more years of punishment after the full 1 year- Why? - (and as stated) That is how the law is written and is exceptable time of punishment ( hmm so for 5 years I can not carry my weapon for protection. Now to put this simple I had to sell every firearm I had due to probation fees and due to I was not allowed to have any firearms until my probation was complete. 1 Year and $3453.23 -- in my opinion I served my time and payed my debt. Now I even attempted to fight this in appeals and I was still told the same thing. Basically the law does need a change. - Or at least allow range transfer with a handgun with certain requirements. But as to your drug and alcohol charges, If you do have more then 1 of each then that means you are continuous/repeat offender ( normally felony occurs at this point and you lose your gun rights all together ), if you only have 1 - you made a mistake and possibly learned from it. And it is the simple truth we all make mistakes. Hopefully this brings a little insight, but I did find stocking up on ammo until I can obtain the permit should work out nicly