Defensive Concepts Class Level 1

[rhino]

I really enjoyed the class and learned some valuable information. A great blend of good people, good training, and fun all at the same time........while safely handling and shooting firearms. I think there's a lot to be said when like minded strangers can get together and accomplish this. Both instructors did a great job, look forward to more training in the future with you folks.

Side note: I got a huge kick out of Rhino's role playing skills.

2nd side note: I'm disappointed there was no actual pizza in the box.

I live to serve my fellow man! I'm still impressed by making the trip from Fort Wayne to Terre Haute in just three hours! It took me over two hours to get there from Lafayette!


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This was my second time through this class (my first was one of if not the first offering). I think the primary value of this class is that it fills a niche between the mechanical shooting and gun handling skills and the force on force scenarios that has previously gone unfilled (at least in my experience). Having scenarios that really happened, making your own plan and practicing it, and then learning how the real incident actually evolved and was resolved is eye opening and inspires questions that I didn't know I needed to ask and answer. It helps those of us who have never been in a situation that required shooting begin to confront some of the realities that we can't understand without some experience or guidance and helps us pre-plan and make decisions for when the unfortunate circumstance may arise for us when life is in jeopardy.

Another thing is that BehindBlueI's presents some ideas and techniques that I've never seen or heard anywhere else that could help you "manage" an assailants OODA loop and give yourself opportunities to take action and prevail that you might not otherwise have. Those who practice drawing and presenting from concealment almost always do so in ways that will maximize their speed going from a start signal to having the gun indexed on a target. The thing is, we can't always choose or have the luxury of accessing a gun in the whatever manner has proven optimal for speed and our chosen carry method. That may sound vague, but if you take the class you'll understand what I'm talking about.

It was a valuable experience to repeat and I recommend it without reservation.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, here or in PMs.

Rhino, if you were in the day time class, I think you were in the first one we offered. I know it's changed a bit, I've stripped out some of the more esoteric stuff about how the brain works and focused more on "this is what you need to think about" and less on the details of "why". Hopefully the "why" is still coming through, and it's less confusing without the details that aren't relevant at the user level.

I also tend to learn something from each class. I like seeing what people do under the bit of stress and what the thought process is, or where their imagination filled in certain blanks, and use that to further my understanding of "human nature" and how we react.

I also know my first demonstration wasn't terribly impressive, barely getting the head shot in the head. Hopefully the demonstrations that followed showed I could put them where I wanted them...most of the time. Since I broke my P226 on Friday and hadn't had a chance to live fire until Monday, I wasn't as good as I should have been up front to inspire confidence in the students that I could do what I was asking them to do. I should have done a warm up run to get used to the different sights and grip. That was my failure. Otherwise, the class went exactly as I would hope and it seems that everyone got something out of it.

 

[rhino]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, here or in PMs.

Rhino, if you were in the day time class, I think you were in the first one we offered. I know it's changed a bit, I've stripped out some of the more esoteric stuff about how the brain works and focused more on "this is what you need to think about" and less on the details of "why". Hopefully the "why" is still coming through, and it's less confusing without the details that aren't relevant at the user level.

I also tend to learn something from each class. I like seeing what people do under the bit of stress and what the thought process is, or where their imagination filled in certain blanks, and use that to further my understanding of "human nature" and how we react.

I also know my first demonstration wasn't terribly impressive, barely getting the head shot in the head. Hopefully the demonstrations that followed showed I could put them where I wanted them...most of the time. Since I broke my P226 on Friday and hadn't had a chance to live fire until Monday, I wasn't as good as I should have been up front to inspire confidence in the students that I could do what I was asking them to do. I should have done a warm up run to get used to the different sights and grip. That was my failure. Otherwise, the class went exactly as I would hope and it seems that everyone got something out of it.

You don't need to apologize for that demo and your explanation at the time was spot-on. However, I know how you feel. Anytime we shoot in front of students (which I think is a good idea), it's almost a no-win situation. If you do everything perfectly, it's expected because you're "the teacher." If you make an error, some will judge you harshly becasue . . . you're the teacher. I had a much worse situation in a night class a few years ago when I did a demo. I had some misses and instead of calming myself and adjusting, I frustrated and it got worse. I know beyond any reasonable doubt that the incident resulted in at least two of the students in that class completely dismissing me and never considering any ACT classes again. That's their prerogative of course, but I hope that most students understand that anyone can have a bad day.

 

[T-DOGG]

I'm finding out that I don't shoot as well in front of a group people due to the stress, however I think that's a good thing in the sense that it helps somewhat simulate how I might do in a actual defensive situation. This gives me a goal to work towards.

 

[Jackson]

I disagree that demonstrations in front of students should be flawless. Don't be afraid to miss in front of your students. You should be able to show them it's possible, but showing them it's difficult and takes consistent work is valuable too.

 

[rhino]

I disagree that demonstrations in front of students should be flawless. Don't be afraid to miss in front of your students. You should be able to show them it's possible, but showing them it's difficult and takes consistent work is valuable too.

That's a good point. You have to have a base level of proficiency, but imperfection is humanizing and for some people, it will only improve the rapport -- we're in this together.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm finding out that I don't shoot as well in front of a group people due to the stress, however I think that's a good thing in the sense that it helps somewhat simulate how I might do in a actual defensive situation. This gives me a goal to work towards.

I think it's helpful, but not a complete analog. I'm not willing to go into great detail here, but there are real differences between social stress and physical confrontation stress. The sympathetic nervous system reacts the same, the mind does not. As such, the stress inoculation is helpful but incomplete. Something like Simunitions is as close to the real event as you can get without being in the real event. It's close enough when I had a real event I actually had the thought "huh, this is just like the Simunition scenario from in-service." Some combination of competition and Simunition has cranked out some fantastic real world shooters.

I usually bring up Audie Murphy when this topic comes up. He was one of the bravest men on the battlefield in recorded history, yet was a self admitted wreck when called upon for public speaking. A guy who could calmly charge a machinegun nest got the yips when he had to speak to a rotary club. The mind is an interesting thing.

 

[rhino]

I think it's helpful, but not a complete analog. I'm not willing to go into great detail here, but there are real differences between social stress and physical confrontation stress. The sympathetic nervous system reacts the same, the mind does not. As such, the stress inoculation is helpful but incomplete. Something like Simunitions is as close to the real event as you can get without being in the real event. It's close enough when I had a real event I actually had the thought "huh, this is just like the Simunition scenario from in-service." Some combination of competition and Simunition has cranked out some fantastic real world shooters.

I usually bring up Audie Murphy when this topic comes up. He was one of the bravest men on the battlefield in recorded history, yet was a self admitted wreck when called upon for public speaking. A guy who could calmly charge a machinegun nest got the yips when he had to speak to a rotary club. The mind is an interesting thing.

I've spoken to a number of people with extensive military combat experience who related that the stress they felt shooting in competition was far more debilitating to them than what they felt in combat. Indeed, the mind is in interesting thing. Some more than others. Hah!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've spoken to a number of people with extensive military combat experience who related that the stress they felt shooting in competition was far more debilitating to them than what they felt in combat. Indeed, the mind is in interesting thing. Some more than others. Hah!

There's solid science behind why. In the broadest of strokes, stress inoculation is detail specific. Fighting through arousal from the sympathetic system is not. So, adrenaline shakes have the same effect no matter how you got them and require the same techniques to mitigate, but how much of it you get varies greatly on what put you there.

 

[Cameramonkey]

This is reminding me I need to sign up as a refresher (next time), and bring Mrs. Monkey along to learn. I got so much out of my run that I think she would too.

 

[T-DOGG]

After speaking with Rhino, he made a valid point that since I don't open carry and I wasn't in training with a concealment garment on Sunday, that I should really practice with how I actually carry. Obviously that was sound advice.

I decided to make a range trip yesterday and spent an hour by myself practicing the "give me your wallet" scenario while drawing from concealment and using a holster that I actually carry with. I didn't have actual USPSA targets to use, so I made some "on the fly". I got more and more comfortable with "talking" to the targets. I realize my shot placement and group size needs a ton of work, but I'm still working on the transition between accurate shots and fast shots while point shooting (I'm not really seeing the sights during this drill). I really really like this drill. This will be one that I will have my wife practice on our next outing.

I used my 2 carry guns, a Shield 9mm and a CZ P-01.

Shield


P-01

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I got more and more comfortable with "talking" to the targets. I realize my shot placement and group size needs a ton of work, but I'm still working on the transition between accurate shots and fast shots while point shooting (I'm not really seeing the sights during this drill). I really really like this drill. This will be one that I will have my wife practice on our next outing.

The next step is to get on a timer and start really seeing where that balance of speed and accuracy is. At the double arm's length distance we ran those at from the beginning, the shot from retention will, of course, not be sighted and will rely on body indexing. As you make space, bring the gun up and by shot 3 you should have the front sight and be using it.

At these distances, surprise, speed, and getting off the "X" are what matters the most, not a pretty group. You need to be able to shoot a pretty group for other shooting problems, but this isn't it.