Dead State Troopers Family Denied Benefits

[UncleMike]

Pay and benefits can't be that bad if there are 5000 vying for those 15-25 jobs like RNM stated.

The VAST majority of the applicants mentioned don't have any idea of the negative aspects of the job. Many are just looking for a secure job, or are thrill seekers who want a job that is "fun". If they get the job they quickly find out that what they thought was "fun" is in reality a very dangerous, low paying, and thankless job. The constant training, lack of family stability, unpredictable hours and often, Supervisory abuse, makes many of them drop out long before they are vested in the Pension Fund.
The case of the State Trooper's "companion" and the Pension Fund dispute has nothing to do with the morality of their relationship. It has to do with MONEY. The State will take ANY opportunity to deny an Emergency Responders pension because it is financially advantageous to do so. Many ER's don't make it, either by choice, disciplinary action, or death, to the point where they can draw from the PERF and the State happily pockets the 6% of their pay that they have deposited into the fund for what ever time that they have served. If someone checks the Pension Fund Laws they will find that even if a surviving "spouse" gets the pension they only get 50% of what the retiree was eligible for. And that amount is only 55% of the lowest paid member of the departments pay in the case of death or disability. AND if the surviving spouse remarries the entire pension is forfeited. They get nada, zip, zero for all of the years that they put up with their spouses working conditions. (These figures are from the 1977 Police and Fire Pension laws. The ISP and Sheriffs pension laws are slightly different in wording, but essentially the same in results.)
The lifestyle of an ER is not for everyone. Those that serve know all too well about the hardships, and even heartaches, that accompany the job but they do it anyway. For that self sacrifice alone they have earned their pension.
As I said earlier.
Not trying to start a fight.
Just stating the facts.
Mike

 

[dross]

Not trying to start a fight.
Just stating the facts.
Mike

Respectfully, you did a lot more than state facts. And you missed Hornady's point.

When it comes to work, the only DESERVE there is, is the deal you made when you took the job, and the deal you continue to make throughout. I appreciate that it takes a certain type of person to work as an emergency responder. Just as it does for lots of jobs.

Typically, emergency responders are paid better than the median and average incomes of the populations they serve. And their retirement plans are better than the vast majority of the people they serve. PERF is a defined benefit plan. That means you get a certain amount of benefits no matter how much is in your pension fund. If you're short, the taxpayers make up the rest. Most of us in the private sector have a defined contribution plan. That means that how much we eventually collect depends on how the fund is managed and how the economy is doing.

None of that is the point. The point is that an employer designs a compensation and benefit plan, not because someone DESERVES something, but to attract candidates to the position. If the compensation package (combined with intangibles such as an exciting job, prestige, etc..., whether realistic or not) attracts enough people to the position, it is working, and you have what you deserve.

When a package draws 5000 applicants, it's working fine. In fact, it's working too well.

Now, as to the original topic, of course the state won't pay for a non married partner, same sex or otherwise. That's current policy. Your point was that it's about money. Okay, same thing. We're talking about changing the policy in the first place. We get that it's about policy. The question is whether we as taxpayers support that policy, which we pay for.

If the job requires too much self sacrifice, quit. If you stay, you are making a choice of free will. Rewards come in many shapes and sizes. Using words like self sacrifice and deserve for doing a job you stood in line to get is just a way to cloud the issue with emotion.

I'm grateful there are people like you who want to do that job and are good at it. Just as I'm grateful for the doctors, teachers, accountants, managers, lawyers, and all the other folks who do vital jobs in our society.

 

[hornadylnl]

More facts. A cop makes $50k for 30 years. If he pays 6% of that salary towards his pension, that's $90k that he paid in out of pocket. How many years does he have to draw a pension to get his $90k back? What if he lives another 30 years after retirement?

Pension plans (regardless of who your employer was) are ponzi schemes just like social security is.

I agree that few are cut out for LEO/emergency work but you can't discount that people want those jobs. Many for the perceived benefits. My point is that those benefits generally are not in line with the civilian world.

 

[UncleMike]

Respectfully, you did a lot more than state facts. And you missed Hornady's point.

When it comes to work, the only DESERVE there is, is the deal you made when you took the job, and the deal you continue to make throughout. I appreciate that it takes a certain type of person to work as an emergency responder. Just as it does for lots of jobs.

Typically, emergency responders are paid better than the median and average incomes of the populations they serve. And their retirement plans are better than the vast majority of the people they serve. PERF is a defined benefit plan. That means you get a certain amount of benefits no matter how much is in your pension fund. If you're short, the taxpayers make up the rest. Most of us in the private sector have a defined contribution plan. That means that how much we eventually collect depends on how the fund is managed and how the economy is doing.

None of that is the point. The point is that an employer designs a compensation and benefit plan, not because someone DESERVES something, but to attract candidates to the position. If the compensation package (combined with intangibles such as an exciting job, prestige, etc..., whether realistic or not) attracts enough people to the position, it is working, and you have what you deserve.

When a package draws 5000 applicants, it's working fine. In fact, it's working too well.

Now, as to the original topic, of course the state won't pay for a non married partner, same sex or otherwise. That's current policy. Your point was that it's about money. Okay, same thing. We're talking about changing the policy in the first place. We get that it's about policy. The question is whether we as taxpayers support that policy, which we pay for.

If the job requires too much self sacrifice, quit. If you stay, you are making a choice of free will. Rewards come in many shapes and sizes. Using words like self sacrifice and deserve for doing a job you stood in line to get is just a way to cloud the issue with emotion.

I'm grateful there are people like you who want to do that job and are good at it. Just as I'm grateful for the doctors, teachers, accountants, managers, lawyers, and all the other folks who do vital jobs in our society.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that LEO's are paid better than the private sector. I can tell you from personal, first hand experience, that in my part of the country LEO's make FAR less than private sector employees. After I retired as a Command Sergeant I took a job in an electronics assembly plant. I made several thousand dollars a year more than I made working the road. Plus in the private sector I got paid CASH for OT, which ER's didn't get. ER's got comp time which didn't put bread on the table, or pay the bills. Comp time only created shortages on the street which in turn hurt the quality of emergency response.
As far as PERF, the plan was changed in 1977 and all of the contributions are placed in investment funds. Just like the private sector pension plans. Under the old plan 1/3 of the monies came from the contributions made by the members and 2/3 monies came from the cigarette tax. So if you didn't smoke, your tax dollars didn't pay the pensions. (Sorry smokers) In addition ER's on PERF are only allowed 1/3 or less of their calculated Social Security benefits. I ALWAYS had a second, private sector, job which paid into the SS fund. In fact virtually every ER that I knew had at least one part time job just to make ends meet. There's no such thing as a "well off" retired ER. PERIOD!!

More facts. A cop makes $50k for 30 years. If he pays 6% of that salary towards his pension, that's $90k that he paid in out of pocket. How many years does he have to draw a pension to get his $90k back? What if he lives another 30 years after retirement?

Pension plans (regardless of who your employer was) are ponzi schemes just like social security is.

I agree that few are cut out for LEO/emergency work but you can't discount that people want those jobs. Many for the perceived benefits. My point is that those benefits generally are not in line with the civilian world.

Once again I don't know where you are getting your "facts". Perhaps some of the ranking Officers in one of the four "big" cities in this state make $50K per year. The facts are that the majority of ER's in this State work for small towns and low revenue counties. The only way that they will ever see $50K per year is to make Chief of Police or ER Director. (Odds of that are pretty slim) Also everyone pays the 6% into the PERF but everyones monthly pension amount is based on the LOWEST persons salary. That $50K person that you mentioned will likely make $15K per year retired. Which means that he/she must get a private sector job to survive. Once again, the retiree will only get 1/3 of their calculated SS benefits because they are getting the monumental sum of $15K per year from PERF.
As far as longevity, the average length of life after retirement for an LEO is less than 20 yrs, and remember he/she is working in the private sector all of that time.
Yup, it takes a special person who wants to work all of their adult life in a dangerous job, that many of the Public despise, for a low dollar pension, that screws you out of 2/3 of your SS benefits.
That said, I don't regret for one minute having done that job for twenty three years. The personal satisfaction of having performed a worthwhile service to the community far outweighs the crappy things that happen.
And if you believe that I'm clouding the issue with emotion. Tough!!
YOU can do that job for a couple of decades and then come back and tell me how easy is was and how good the perks are.
Rant over.
Nuff said!!
Mike

 

[dross]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that LEO's are paid better than the private sector. I can tell you from personal, first hand experience, that in my part of the country LEO's make FAR less than private sector employees. After I retired as a Command Sergeant I took a job in an electronics assembly plant. I made several thousand dollars a year more than I made working the road. Plus in the private sector I got paid CASH for OT, which ER's didn't get. ER's got comp time which didn't put bread on the table, or pay the bills. Comp time only created shortages on the street which in turn hurt the quality of emergency response.
As far as PERF, the plan was changed in 1977 and all of the contributions are placed in investment funds. Just like the private sector pension plans. Under the old plan 1/3 of the monies came from the contributions made by the members and 2/3 monies came from the cigarette tax. So if you didn't smoke, your tax dollars didn't pay the pensions. (Sorry smokers) In addition ER's on PERF are only allowed 1/3 or less of their calculated Social Security benefits. I ALWAYS had a second, private sector, job which paid into the SS fund. In fact virtually every ER that I knew had at least one part time job just to make ends meet. There's no such thing as a "well off" retired ER. PERIOD!!



Once again I don't know where you are getting your "facts". Perhaps some of the ranking Officers in one of the four "big" cities in this state make $50K per year. The facts are that the majority of ER's in this State work for small towns and low revenue counties. The only way that they will ever see $50K per year is to make Chief of Police or ER Director. (Odds of that are pretty slim) Also everyone pays the 6% into the PERF but everyones monthly pension amount is based on the LOWEST persons salary. That $50K person that you mentioned will likely make $15K per year retired. Which means that he/she must get a private sector job to survive. Once again, the retiree will only get 1/3 of their calculated SS benefits because they are getting the monumental sum of $15K per year from PERF.
As far as longevity, the average length of life after retirement for an LEO is less than 20 yrs, and remember he/she is working in the private sector all of that time.
Yup, it takes a special person who wants to work all of their adult life in a dangerous job, that many of the Public despise, for a low dollar pension, that screws you out of 2/3 of your SS benefits.
That said, I don't regret for one minute having done that job for twenty three years. The personal satisfaction of having performed a worthwhile service to the community far outweighs the crappy things that happen.
And if you believe that I'm clouding the issue with emotion. Tough!!
YOU can do that job for a couple of decades and then come back and tell me how easy is was and how good the perks are.
Rant over.
Nuff said!!
Mike

I couldn't find all the figures I wanted, but these will do, though they are a couple of years old. The median income in Indiana - 43,993. STARTING salary for an Indianapolis cop - 36, 874. It's a little more for a starting state trooper. I think it's reasonable to assume that the medium income for LEOs is higher than the median income for the population at large, judging from the numbers I provided you.

Yes, your plan is invested in the market. But the way I understand it, your BENEFITS remain the same regardless of how well your plans investments do in the market.

Your personal experience is anecdotal.

None of this is the point, and BTW, I never said the job was easy. I assume it's tough, though I wouldn't know. The point is that no one made you do that job. If it didn't suit you, you didn't have to do it. Apparently it suits plenty of people, as lots want to do it.

Compensation is not a reward, it's a deal made between you and your employer.

 

[dross]

Just checked salary wizard, for what it's worth. For police patrol officers, 25% make below 41,523, 25% are above 58,814, with 50% being between those numbers.

Substantially beats the Indiana median.

 

[Loco179]

Why is any family member entitled to survivor benefits? It is a benefit, not a right. Most civilian employers don't offer any pensions, let alone transfer it to the spouse after the principle dies.

Because if they did not who would do this job? Seriously? How many civilian employers deal with deaths of employee's? It just makes sense.

Redneckmedic I agree with you.

 

[Joe Williams]

Because if they did not who would do this job? Seriously? How many civilian employers deal with deaths of employee's? It just makes sense.

Redneckmedic I agree with you.

Lots of civilian employers deal with the deaths of employees, far more often that police departments do.

Convenience stores
Coal mines
Commercial fisheries
Construction companies
Pizza chains
Airlines
Pilot training schools and airports
Taxi companies

Just to name a few... and many of those killed have no benefits, and are paid far less.

 

[CarmelHP]

Because if they did not who would do this job? Seriously? How many civilian employers deal with deaths of employee's? It just makes sense.

Redneckmedic I agree with you.

Police are civilians. Many, many lines of work are more dangerous than police officers. As was mentioned, if you took the job knowing the benefit restrictions, why complaining later. It's the bargain you struck.

 

[dross]

Yup, it takes a special person who wants to work all of their adult life in a dangerous job, that many of the Public despise, for a low dollar pension, that screws you out of 2/3 of your SS benefits.

Could you explain this statement, please? I looked and from what I'm reading at least some PERF retirees draw full SS. What am I missing?

 

[UncleMike]

I couldn't find all the figures I wanted, but these will do, though they are a couple of years old. The median income in Indiana - 43,993. STARTING salary for an Indianapolis cop - 36, 874. It's a little more for a starting state trooper. I think it's reasonable to assume that the medium income for LEOs is higher than the median income for the population at large, judging from the numbers I provided you.

Yes, your plan is invested in the market. But the way I understand it, your BENEFITS remain the same regardless of how well your plans investments do in the market.

Your personal experience is anecdotal.

None of this is the point, and BTW, I never said the job was easy. I assume it's tough, though I wouldn't know. The point is that no one made you do that job. If it didn't suit you, you didn't have to do it. Apparently it suits plenty of people, as lots want to do it.

Compensation is not a reward, it's a deal made between you and your employer.

OK one more try.
The Starting salary for an Indy Officer has less that NOTHING to do with the salary of the VAST majority of LEO's. Apparently you missed the part of my thread which stated that the big salaries are being made by a MINORITY of Officers. Namely those in big cities and Troopers. MOST Officers in this state make less that $35K per year and the starting salary is considerably less than that.
As I stated, the PERF amount is based on the LOWEST paid Officers salary and does NOT automatically rise with that figure. A Retiree with 20 yrs service, who is at least 52 years old, will get 50% of the base Patrolman salary for the year that he retires. When the Patrolman salary goes up the retirees pension amount DOES NOT INCREASE BY 50% OF THE PATROLMAN'S NEW SALARY. In fact the MAXIMUM that a retiree can get as a yearly raise is 3% of what he/she is currently getting. If a Retiree gets $15K per year the maximum COLA that he/she can get is $450.00 per year, which is $37.50 per month, and that is only if the State PERF Fund decides that the increase is warranted. (I haven't gotten a PERF raise for going on two years.)
As for my personal experience being "anecdotal" I beg to differ. My personal experience is the sum total of my life and the basis for ALL of my decisions and attitudes. You sound as if my life is of no consequence compared to yours. :moon:
And you're right. No one made me do the job. I chose to do it so that people like you could sleep soundly at night and have someone to call if you had a problem. As I said, I don't regret one minute of my career, and now that I'm retired I can sleep soundly at night knowing that there are younger people willing to do the same job that I did. Even though the Public, in general, has NO IDEA of the time and effort put into that, often thankless, job.
Mike

 

[Loco179]

Could you explain this statement, please? I looked and from what I'm reading at least some PERF retirees draw full SS. What am I missing?

You cannot draw off SS if you draw from a government pension plan aka 1977 fund. It was covered on the SS post.

You have to pick up another job that pays into SS.

 

[dross]

OK one more try.
The Starting salary for an Indy Officer has less that NOTHING to do with the salary of the VAST majority of LEO's. Apparently you missed the part of my thread which stated that the big salaries are being made by a MINORITY of Officers. Namely those in big cities and Troopers. MOST Officers in this state make less that $35K per year and the starting salary is considerably less than that.
As I stated, the PERF amount is based on the LOWEST paid Officers salary and does NOT automatically rise with that figure. A Retiree with 20 yrs service, who is at least 52 years old, will get 50% of the base Patrolman salary for the year that he retires. When the Patrolman salary goes up the retirees pension amount DOES NOT INCREASE BY 50% OF THE PATROLMAN'S NEW SALARY. In fact the MAXIMUM that a retiree can get as a yearly raise is 3% of what he/she is currently getting. If a Retiree gets $15K per year the maximum COLA that he/she can get is $450.00 per year, which is $37.50 per month, and that is only if the State PERF Fund decides that the increase is warranted. (I haven't gotten a PERF raise for going on two years.)
As for my personal experience being "anecdotal" I beg to differ. My personal experience is the sum total of my life and the basis for ALL of my decisions and attitudes. You sound as if my life is of no consequence compared to yours. :moon:
And you're right. No one made me do the job. I chose to do it so that people like you could sleep soundly at night and have someone to call if you had a problem. As I said, I don't regret one minute of my career, and now that I'm retired I can sleep soundly at night knowing that there are younger people willing to do the same job that I did. Even though the Public, in general, has NO IDEA of the time and effort put into that, often thankless, job.
Mike

The only figures I could find were for IPD and the state patrol. It remains to be seen how LEO salaries stack up to the median salaries in their communities.

As to you doing your job so I could sleep soundly at night, fine. Lots of people, me included, do or have done jobs that allow others to sleep soundly at night. Your reasons are your reasons. I don't applaud or belittle them.

"Anecdotal" is not a derogotory word, it just means that your experience may not translate as widely as you think. I think out of the two of us, it is you who has acted superior as to your choice of job, and that's without knowing anything about what I do, or have done.

I have argued my points politely, non-personally, and I have asked honest questions of you to clarify. Until now, I've ignored your sh***y comments. But in answer to what I can only assume is an animated likeness of yours, I invite you to kiss mine as well.

 

[UncleMike]

Lots of civilian employers deal with the deaths of employees, far more often that police departments do.

Convenience stores
Coal mines
Commercial fisheries
Construction companies
Pizza chains
Airlines
Pilot training schools and airports
Taxi companies

Just to name a few... and many of those killed have no benefits, and are paid far less.

Apparently you spend more time watching The Discovery Channel than the news. Here are the figures since 2000.
2000 = 163
2001 = 242
2002 = 159
2003 = 147
2004 = 164
2005 = 164
2006 = 156
2007 = 193
2008 = 138
2009 = 120
2010 = 19 (IN ONE MONTH!!!)
Total = 1545
Source = Honoring Officers Killed in the Year 2010

Now, I seriously doubt that the number of people killed while working in any one of the occupations mentioned by you is anywhere near the number of LEO's killed in the line of duty over the last ten years. I may be wrong but you'll have to prove it with reputable statistics.
Mike

 

[dross]

Apparently you spend more time watching The Discovery Channel than the news.

Are you capable of answering someone's point without being personal and nasty? Relax. Every disagreement is not an attack.

 

[CarmelHP]

You cannot draw off SS if you draw from a government pension plan aka 1977 fund. It was covered on the SS post.

You have to pick up another job that pays into SS.

If you had one of the jobs that were covered by pensions that permitted opt-out of Social Security you had to work at covered employment to draw Social Security. Even then there's a Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP) that reduces your Social Security benefits. What happened was that federal employees would retire at 55 drawing federal pensions but having never paid into social security and then work a few years at covered employment in low wage jobs in order enough to get credits to get full SS benefits at 65. There is a redistribution built in at low wage rates and low wage workers get higher benefits that their taxes would justify, but that was meant for those whose working lives were in low wage jobs and who always paid into SS. Retired federal employees were getting a windfall so the WEP was introduced. Indiana Employees that are not in one of the SS exempted jobs and who are in PERF can draw both as long as paid into both.

 

[UncleMike]

Could you explain this statement, please? I looked and from what I'm reading at least some PERF retirees draw full SS. What am I missing?

Absolutely NOT TRUE in the case of LEO's!! (We get "special" treatment from the SS administration)
I'm drawing SS!
I get 1/3 of my calculated SS benefits because I have a State pension.

You cannot draw off SS if you draw from a government pension plan aka 1977 fund. It was covered on the SS post.

You have to pick up another job that pays into SS.

True! But you still get just 1/3 of the calculated benefits. No matter how long that you paid into the SS system, or how much money, that you put into it.
Mike

 

[mrjarrell]

Apparently you spend more time watching The Discovery Channel than the news. Here are the figures since 2000.
2000 = 163
2001 = 242
2002 = 159
2003 = 147
2004 = 164
2005 = 164
2006 = 156
2007 = 193
2008 = 138
2009 = 120
2010 = 19 (IN ONE MONTH!!!)
Total = 1545
Source = Honoring Officers Killed in the Year 2010

Now, I seriously doubt that the number of people killed while working in any one of the occupations mentioned by you is anywhere near the number of LEO's killed in the line of duty over the last ten years. I may be wrong but you'll have to prove it with reputable statistics.
Mike

The stats for the figures Joe posted, which I have seen posted elsewhere, come from the US Government Bureau of Labor Statistics, (you could check their site). AOL has a list from 2008. LEO's don't even get honourable mention for industry related deaths. It doesn't take away from the deaths, there just aren't as many as other civilian occupations.

 

[redneckmedic]

There are many dangerous jobs out there necessary to the functioning of our society that aren't government jobs.

1. Fishers and related fishing workers
Fatality rate*: 128.9
2. Logging workers
Fatality rate: 115.7
3. Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Fatality rate: 72.4
4. Structural iron and steel workers
Fatality rate: 46.4
..........

Apparently you spend more time watching The Discovery Channel than the news. Here are the figures since 2000.
2000 = 163
2001 = 242
2002 = 159
2003 = 147
2004 = 164
2005 = 164
2006 = 156
2007 = 193
2008 = 138
2009 = 120
2010 = 19 (IN ONE MONTH!!!)
Total = 1545
Source = Honoring Officers Killed in the Year 2010

Now, I seriously doubt that the number of people killed while working in any one of the occupations mentioned by you is anywhere near the number of LEO's killed in the line of duty over the last ten years. I may be wrong but you'll have to prove it with reputable statistics.
Mike

Actually the previous post (1st quote) is correct i believe its not the total number... it is the total number per 100,000 per population. LEO and Firefighters aren't anywhere near the top of the most "deadly" jobs. However they are the most dangerous public service job and none of the other jobs are LODD, as they aren't a man's duty, they are employment.

These points were completely skipped over, its disturbing,maybe we should start to bash the U.S. Soldiers next saying that they don't deserve the millions of dollars they get in VET care after their service, after all its only a job, no different than a INGO Mod (or what ever).

.....NO ONE becomes an Emergency Responder for the crappy pension.
Not picking a fight.
Just stating the facts.
Mike

It's interesting how folk want to praise those who serve until there is an issue concerning tax payer money. That's pitiful.

I think we agree on the moral issue, its the ethical issue thats the hic-up. I think that civil rights is civil rights even if it has sin attached to it.

 

[UncleMike]

Are you capable of answering someone's point without being personal and nasty? Relax. Every disagreement is not an attack.

If I come off as nasty, I apologize.
My passion for this subject is drawn from thirty eight years of living in that situation. I get somewhat angry when the ER's, and LEO's in particular, are denigrated for doing a job that most people are not willing, or capable, of performing. (See, there I go again. Sorry.)
Mike