Damn CPS!!!! At it again!!

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Yes. The Welfare State creates the Life at the Bottom (the book) culture that creates the DCS actions. Re-establish the Lash of Poverty and you abolish unmarried child bearing, the drug culture, the sloth culture, inter alia.

You would still have a DCS of sorts but it would deal with emergencies (e.g. both parents dying in car wreck) but it would be much reduced.

You know the drill, the politicians create the problem and then create the "solutions" to the problems which only aggravates the problems that they attempt to cure.

Kill the Welfare State and stop subsidizing the bad behavior that DCS is involved in.

Absolutely agree.

Me too...absolutely.

 

[steveh_131]

Yes. The Welfare State creates the Life at the Bottom (the book) culture that creates the DCS actions. Re-establish the Lash of Poverty and you abolish unmarried child bearing, the drug culture, the sloth culture, inter alia.

You would still have a DCS of sorts but it would deal with emergencies (e.g. both parents dying in car wreck) but it would be much reduced.

You know the drill, the politicians create the problem and then create the "solutions" to the problems which only aggravates the problems that they attempt to cure.

Kill the Welfare State and stop subsidizing the bad behavior that DCS is involved in.

I would agree completely if DCS was focused on the welfare class...but based on the research I've done lately, there are plenty of folks who are not on welfare who are having their children taken away from them unjustly.

Perhaps the agency as a whole would shrink, but not the tendency for human beings to want to meddle in each others' lives.

I suppose we disagree to some extent on the root source of this problem, but we certainly agree that ending the welfare state would help.

 

[rambone]

I am sure that ending the Welfare State would improve a great many things. But it would not end the incentives of CPS to take children. I don't see them laying off of these families because the state spends less on welfare.

CPS confiscates healthy girl from parents who smoked pot, murdered in fostercare

Baby taken from parents who wanted 2nd doctor's opinion

Healthy infant confiscated from family to be force-medicated by the government

IN Father loses children for pointing out illegal court practices.

CPS confiscates healthy, happy little girl, and drugs her till her tongue hangs

Dad an 'unfit parent' after traffic ticket on a bicycle

CPS investigates father for feeding kids organic food, & owning a Bug Out Bag

kgb american style


Even when you are poor and avoid the Welfare State you are a target.

Poor family tries to survive without welfare; CPS confiscates their 6 kids


There is no escape.

 

[CarmelHP]

I am sure that ending the Welfare State would improve a great many things. But it would not end the incentives of CPS to take children. I don't see them laying off of these families because the state spends less on welfare.

CPS confiscates healthy girl from parents who smoked pot, murdered in fostercare

Baby taken from parents who wanted 2nd doctor's opinion

Healthy infant confiscated from family to be force-medicated by the government

IN Father loses children for pointing out illegal court practices.

CPS confiscates healthy, happy little girl, and drugs her till her tongue hangs

Dad an 'unfit parent' after traffic ticket on a bicycle

CPS investigates father for feeding kids organic food, & owning a Bug Out Bag

kgb american style


Even when you are poor and avoid the Welfare State you are a target.

Poor family tries to survive without welfare; CPS confiscates their 6 kids


There is no escape.

Without the welfare state providing a large herd to ride herd over, these agencies would be unsustainable. There would very few, and mostly private, charities doing the social work.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

But it would not end the incentives of CPS to take children. I don't see them laying off of these families because the state spends less on welfare

The Welfare State consists of more than direct transfer payments but includes the infrastructure which is causing the conditions for DCS/CPS to act.

 

[level.eleven]

Here is a fun one for the children are chattel crowd. 9 kids. 2 die from simple ailments because parents didn't seek medical attention. CPS takes the other 7.

Judge refuses to drop murder charge against faith-healing parents after a second child dies - ABA Journal

If these kids were chattel, these parents wouldn't be facing any charges.

 

[Papabeargsh]

Sometimes CPS gets it right. I felt sick just reading about the conditions the kids were living in!

 

[IndyDave1776]

Sometimes CPS gets it right. I felt sick just reading about the conditions the kids were living in!

This is true, but are you willing to accept a huge step that has largely been taken toward an authoritarian power structure because of those times when they are accidentally right?

 

[steveh_131]

Here is a fun one for the children are chattel crowd. 9 kids. 2 die from simple ailments because parents didn't seek medical attention. CPS takes the other 7.

Judge refuses to drop murder charge against faith-healing parents after a second child dies - ABA Journal

If these kids were chattel, these parents wouldn't be facing any charges.

The baby had cold symptoms, and died 3 days after symptoms appeared.

This is murder? Shoot, if that's murder then I am guilty of about 15 counts of attempted murder.

Should every death of a child by natural causes be investigated as a murder? How many days of cold symptoms are allowed before we take the baby away from mom and dad and toss their sorry butts in prison?

 

[88GT]

The baby had cold symptoms, and died 3 days after symptoms appeared.

This is murder? Shoot, if that's murder then I am guilty of about 15 counts of attempted murder.

Should every death of a child by natural causes be investigated as a murder? How many days of cold symptoms are allowed before we take the baby away from mom and dad and toss their sorry butts in prison?

The irony is that he sees both children and parents as chattel....of the state. Children exist solely for the good of the state's interest, and parents exist solely for the purpose of keeping children alive to fulfill their purpose.

 

[steveh_131]

The irony is that he sees both children and parents as chattel....of the state. Children exist solely for the good of the state's interest, and parents exist solely for the purpose of keeping children alive to fulfill their purpose.

+1

 

[level.eleven]

The irony is that he sees both children and parents as chattel....of the state. Children exist solely for the good of the state's interest, and parents exist solely for the purpose of keeping children alive to fulfill their purpose.

No. I don't recognize the ownership of people as property. No. Not a single local, state, or federal entity recognizes the ownership of people as property.

Chattel - an item of tangible movable or immovable property except real estate and things (as buildings) connected with real property

Chattel - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

chattel legal definition of chattel. chattel synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

While this may be a difficult concept for you to grasp, the rest of society has, fortunately, moved along.

How did you arrive at your position of people as property?

 

[level.eleven]

The baby had cold symptoms, and died 3 days after symptoms appeared.

This is murder? Shoot, if that's murder then I am guilty of about 15 counts of attempted murder.

Should every death of a child by natural causes be investigated as a murder? How many days of cold symptoms are allowed before we take the baby away from mom and dad and toss their sorry butts in prison?

Yes. Investigations should occur when parents let a child lie in its crib watching it suffocate from severe bacterial pneumonia, dehydrate from severe diarrhea and fever, and eventually die. Even more so when the exact same thing happened a mere 4 years before. The defense lawyer would have you believe that on Monday morning the infant had the sniffles and was dead by Wednesday night.

I guess in chattel world you simply treat this like any other unwanted chattel. Throw it in a Hefty and sit it out on the curb. The infant being chattel and all...

 

[steveh_131]

How did you arrive at your position of people as property?

There is an important distinction that you refuse to acknowledge.

She doesn't treat people as property. She isn't advocating that we begin treating each other as property.

She thinks that the government should consider children to be the property of their parents.

Yes. Investigations should occur when parents let a child lie in its crib watching it suffocate from severe bacterial pneumonia, dehydrate from severe diarrhea and fever, and eventually die. Even more so when the exact same thing happened a mere 4 years before. The defense lawyer would have you believe that on Monday morning the infant had the sniffles and was dead by Wednesday night.

Who made you the final authority in pediatric medical decisions? Do you really want to take responsibility for handling these decisions for other parents by force? You gonna come into my house with a gun and tossing me in jail for not taking my son to the E.R. last time he had a cold?

I guess in chattel world you simply treat this like any other unwanted chattel. Throw it in a Hefty and sit it out on the curb. The infant being chattel and all...

Big talk coming from a guy who has no problem with this, as long as the child hasn't yet reached some arbitrary age.

You're arguing against people who value children very highly. We just don't think the government is an effective or appropriate method for demonstrating this value.

 

[level.eleven]

There is an important distinction that you refuse to acknowledge.

She doesn't treat people as property. She isn't advocating that we begin treating each other as property.

She thinks that the government should consider children to be the property of their parents.

A distinction with no premise. The legislative and judicial systems establish what is property and what is not. Remember that pesky rule of law? Humans aren't chattel.

Why can't you trade your chattel? I can trade my TV for a pistol right here on INGO. I was told no special laws for groups of people upthread. Trading chattel is a-okay.

After I finish watching Breaking Bad tonight I am going to take a baseball bat to my TV. Bash the F out of it. When the justice system doesn't distinguish between my TV and my daughter, there is no consequece from doing the same to her. If someone does the same to your daughter, it is a property crime. Maybe a little probation for caving in your childs skull. My child is chattel, it is my property with the same legal standing as my TV, same as yours. Throw kidnapping out the window, it is now theft until the chattel has matured to a point. Now, how would that be prosecuted? Petty theft for the younger kids and grand theft for the older ones? Child abuse? Gone. You can't abuse a TV. Or, just maybe, calling humans chattel, regardless of status, isn't a good idea. When does a child get released from chattel status? 18? Who decides 18? The big scary government? Are you still your parents chattel? If a child's parents die do they get tossed into the estate auction with the other chattel? You can't have it both ways.

Who made you the final authority in pediatric medical decisions? Do you really want to take responsibility for handling these decisions for other parents by force? You gonna come into my house with a gun and tossing me in jail for not taking my son to the E.R. last time he had a cold?

Stay on target, Rambone. No one made me the final authority. No, parents can make parenting decisions, ufortunately for the chattel crowd, killing them isn't an option. The family didn't call up the ER. They called the coroner. Twice. They stood over the crib of infant and watched it slowly die, suffocate, and did nothing. Twice. They killed two of their children.

Big talk coming from a guy who has no problem with this, as long as the child hasn't yet reached some arbitrary age.

You're arguing against people who value children very highly. We just don't think the government is an effective or appropriate method for demonstrating this value.

How do you dispose of unwanted chattel? Burn barrel? Remember, these kids have the legal definition of a TV.

 

[steveh_131]

A distinction with no premise. The legislative and judicial systems establish what is property and what is not. Remember that pesky rule of law? Humans aren't chattel.

Why can't you trade your chattel? I can trade my TV for a pistol right here on INGO.

After I finish watching Breaking Bad tonight I am going to take a baseball bat to my TV. Bash the F out of it. When the justice system doesn't distinguish between my TV and my daughter, there is no consequece from doing the same to her. If someone does the same to your daughter, it is a property crime. Maybe a little probation for caving in your childs skull. My child is chattel, it is my property with the same legal standing as my TV, same as yours. Throw kidnapping out the window, it is now theft. Child abuse? Gone. Or, just maybe, calling humans chattel, regardless of status, isn't a good idea. When does a child get released from chattel status? 18? Who decides 18? The big scary government? Are you still your parents chattel? If a child's parents die do they get tossed into the estate auction with the other chattel? You can't have it both ways.

All of this happens already. I'm not advocating it. I just don't think there is a better way to prevent it. The government isn't accomplishing any more in this arena than it accomplishes with prohibition, gun control, or any other failed attempt to force people to behave responsibly. Don't mistake my beliefs regarding the proper limitations of government force to be equivalent with my moral code.

Stay on target, Rambone. No one made me the final authority. No, parents can make parenting decisions, ufortunately for the chattel crowd, killing them isn't an option. The family didn't call up the ER. They called the coroner. Twice. They stood over the crib of infant and watched it slowly die, suffocate, and did nothing. Twice. They killed two of their children.

And yet, here you are, calling for these people to be charged with murder. Sounds like you have made yourself the final authority. So whaddya say? Murder trial for every parent with a dead child? You gonna be the jury?

How do you dispose of unwanted chattel? Burn barrel? Remember, these kids have the legal definition of a TV.

I don't think people ought to treat their kids as chattel. That's you, remember? Until they hit an arbitrary age of what, -6 months, yes, you basically advocate putting them in a burn barrel.

Am I wrong?

 

[level.eleven]

I'm done playing whack-a-mole with the paranoid homeschool crowd. You folks should listen to the HSLDA in some regard. Going on a public forum, declaring your wish that your children are chattel, and admitting to using force beyond what society deems acceptable isn't how you stay under the radar. Think back to those conferences that indoctrinated you on how to hide your kids from legal authorities, friends, family, and neighbors.

 

[steveh_131]

I'm done playing whack-a-mole with the paranoid homeschool crowd. You folks should listen to the HSLDA in some regard. Going on a public forum, declaring your wish that your children are chattel, and admitting to using force beyond what society deems acceptable isn't how you stay under the radar. Think back to those conferences that indoctrinated you on how to hide your kids from legal authorities, friends, family, and neighbors.

I think that you and I are both well aware of the various logical fallacies and actual dishonesty contained in this paragraph.

I don't even feel the urge to discuss it.

 

[steveh_131]

A perfect example of where the nanny state will lead us:

Mother in trouble with state over homemade goat's milk formula - WAFB 9 News Baton Rouge, Louisiana News, Weather, Sports

So, what do you say, level.eleven? Should we allow doctors to decide what is best for a child? This doctor thought that goat milk formula was child abuse.

Are you going to be the one to walk into that house and take their goat-milk fed baby away at gun point?

 

[level.eleven]

A perfect example of where the nanny state will lead us:

Mother in trouble with state over homemade goat's milk formula - WAFB 9 News Baton Rouge, Louisiana News, Weather, Sports

So, what do you say, level.eleven? Should we allow doctors to decide what is best for a child? This doctor thought that goat milk formula was child abuse.

Are you going to be the one to walk into that house and take their goat-milk fed baby away at gun point?

Neither of us have anywhere near enough information to even form an opinion about this case. It is really tough being a social worker when medical records are in play. There is no legal avenue for you defend your actions. Only the court and the doctor know what is in those medical records. You scream "Chattel! Freedom!". That could be the case. So could this - newborn not showing healthy weight gain, malnourished, anemic, nutrient deficient, near death and requiring a night of observation in the hospital until vitals are restored, when asked about what the baby is being fed the mother grabs the newborn and sprints out the doctors office, mother is given instructions on how to care for a newborn, weight gain happens, 17 year old mother - absent father - has to do periodic checkups for a period of time so she screams "THEY won't leave me alone!"...go to a jail sometime and ask the inmates if they are innocent.

The cherry on top was the interview at the end with Mr. Ponytail McPower Crystal. I wonder why they went to a back-cracker for information on newborn nutritional needs? Hmmm....the only thing he prescribes are a comfortable pair of Tevas (with or without socks) and a back rub.