Damn CPS!!!! At it again!!

[traderdan]

Some of us were raised in less than ideal conditions by parents who truly loved us and taught us well...while in the grip of poverty. We do not need an agency that persecutes the poor. We DO need real solutions to the problem of neglected children, and quick terminal punishment against someone who really hurts a child. In our great desire to ignore the call of our eternal creator, we relegate churches to the level of being only places that function as entertainment centers,and do not recognize that the only solution to most of these problems is within US! What are all you internet cowboys doing to see the life of a child improved?

 

[churchmouse]

We have done a lot in this area over the years with some success and some let downs.

 

[lucky4034]

And by oppressive, you mean anything with which you disagree. I understand. Freedom for others as long as they do it your way.

That is correct... I am the king and I make the rules. Post like these are a waste of my Royal Time. Now go punch your property in the back of the head....

 

[traderdan]

We have done a lot in this area over the years with some success and some let downs.

We must always remember that the reward is in the "doing" and payment for services rendered does not come in measurable quantities! CPS must be run by PEOPLE with these ideas in mind...not by faceless,emotionless,government employees.

 

[IndyDave1776]

No, I respect the opinions of those who DO over those who DON'T because we might actually know what we are talking about.

This is exactly the problem with mutual understanding between police, court personnel, CPS and the rest of us. You tell us that since we aren't part of your group we don't know enough to have an opinion. I understand that the rest of us generally don't see the disgusting things that you do, but that doesn't change the fact that my observations of molested children not being helped or even meaningful investigation being done beyond allowing the parent in question to deny it and be forgotten is perfectly valid. It doesn't change the fact that my observation of CPS completely f**king up and innocent man's life is perfectly valid. It doesn't change the fact that my knowledge that there are people who work with children who make a point of not finding out about abuse at a level that would require reporting because they know from experience that the investigation will amount to a phone call, dropping the issue, and retaliation against the child is perfectly valid.

'Sit down and be quiet because your betters know better than you' doesn't go over well with the rest of us especially when we know without reservation that our observations are correct.

 

[lucky4034]

This is exactly the problem with mutual understanding between police, court personnel, CPS and the rest of us. You tell us that since we aren't part of your group we don't know enough to have an opinion. I understand that the rest of us generally don't see the disgusting things that you do, but that doesn't change the fact that my observations of molested children not being helped or even meaningful investigation being done beyond allowing the parent in question to deny it and be forgotten is perfectly valid. It doesn't change the fact that my observation of CPS completely f**king up and innocent man's life is perfectly valid. It doesn't change the fact that my knowledge that there are people who work with children who make a point of not finding out about abuse at a level that would require reporting because they know from experience that the investigation will amount to a phone call, dropping the issue, and retaliation against the child is perfectly valid.

'Sit down and be quiet because your betters know better than you' doesn't go over well with the rest of us especially when we know without reservation that our observations are correct.

Quoted for truth...

If this system isn't failing so badly, then why is everyone complaining?

 

[level.eleven]

Children have rights. Whoever said they didn't?

Parental authority is the one right I believe is absolute 100% completely up to the parents and no one else. And as unsettling as it is to some, I give a lot of leeway to use of force that most people today in America find intolerable. Think of me what you will, but children as chattel is how I view parental authority from a legal standpoint. Which is it? Do children have the same legal standing as a coffee mug in your world? How does chattel have rights? This sounds like parental rights movement drivel that one finds in the monthly legal action newsletter from the HSLDA - themselves defenders of child abusers. It is 2013. Are you honestly pushing a people as property line of thinking?

 

[lucky4034]

Parental authority is the one right I believe is absolute 100% completely up to the parents and no one else. And as unsettling as it is to some, I give a lot of leeway to use of force that most people today in America find intolerable. Think of me what you will, but children as chattel is how I view parental authority from a legal standpoint. Which is it? Do children have the same legal standing as a coffee mug in your world? How does chattel have rights? This sounds like parental rights movement drivel that one finds in the monthly legal action newsletter from the HSLDA - themselves defenders of child abusers. It is 2013. Are you honestly pushing a people as property line of thinking?

Whats funny is that judging by her quote and the way she approaches this subject, its obvious she considers herself the lowest standard of parenting. Apparently she is completely oblivious to the horrible things other parents subject their chattel to... ...well, either that or she really is the lowest standard of parenting and thinks its ok?

 

[traderdan]

This is exactly the problem with mutual understanding between police, court personnel, CPS and the rest of us. You tell us that since we aren't part of your group we don't know enough to have an opinion. I understand that the rest of us generally don't see the disgusting things that you do, but that doesn't change the fact that my observations of molested children not being helped or even meaningful investigation being done beyond allowing the parent in question to deny it and be forgotten is perfectly valid. It doesn't change the fact that my observation of CPS completely f**king up and innocent man's life is perfectly valid. It doesn't change the fact that my knowledge that there are people who work with children who make a point of not finding out about abuse at a level that would require reporting because they know from experience that the investigation will amount to a phone call, dropping the issue, and retaliation against the child is perfectly valid.

'Sit down and be quiet because your betters know better than you' doesn't go over well with the rest of us especially when we know without reservation that our observations are correct.

VERY well written...I would observe that a college degree does not qualify an individual to make life altering decisions for children. The BEST decisions could be made by mature individuals who have raised families of their own. Certain life choices,(in a perfect world) would disqualify some from participating in functions of the government such as CPS.

 

[traderdan]

Whats funny is that judging by her quote and the way she approaches this subject, its obvious she considers herself the lowest standard of parenting. Apparently she is completely oblivious to the horrible things other parents subject their chattel to... ...well, either that or she really is the lowest standard of parenting and thinks its ok?

What is NOT funny is that anything that any of us say,can be twisted when "out of context" to promote any idea about us. 88GT is a clear thinker that can argue most of us to a stand still!

 

[IndyDave1776]

VERY well written...I would observe that a college degree does not qualify an individual to make life altering decisions for children. The BEST decisions could be made by mature individuals who have raised families of their own. Certain life choices,(in a perfect world) would disqualify some from participating in functions of the government such as CPS.

Thanks for the kind words. As for the solution, I really don't know. Some of the most horribly wrong decisions I have seen were made by someone who raised two great kids, seems sensible in any way I can think to evaluate, yet is responsible for some of the problems I mentioned earlier. It leads me to the conclusion that arrest and seizure of persons should be done by officers with proper warrants and any other participation should be limited to providing for the children who have to be removed by the police with a warrant to do so (unless of course there are immediate and compelling circumstances like intervening in significant abuse in progress).

 

[lucky4034]

What is NOT funny is that anything that any of us say,can be twisted when "out of context" to promote any idea about us. 88GT is a clear thinker that can argue most of us to a stand still!

No one was twisting anything... I was well aware of her despotocratic view on parenting before I engaged her in this conversation. As a matter of fact that quote that level.eleven pulled out of the archives was a response to me in a different thread.

She believes parents have the right to subject their children to anything they want... just so long as it doesn't cause irreparable harm. Which is either shortsighted, ridiculous, naive or evil.... pick whichever you want.

 

[traderdan]

No one was twisting anything... I was well aware of her despotocratic view on parenting before I engaged her in this conversation. As a matter of fact that quote that level.eleven pulled out of the archives was a response to me in a different thread.

She believes parents have the right to subject their children to anything they want... just so long as it doesn't cause irreparable harm. Which is either shortsighted, ridiculous, naive or evil.... pick whichever you want.

Let me quote my Dad..who is deceased,in response to someone who questioned his hands-on correction that we so richly deserved. When he was asked how far he would go to cause us to obey him.."As far as it takes". I feel sorry for children who are in control of their own behavior.

 

[lucky4034]

Thanks for the kind words. As for the solution, I really don't know. Some of the most horribly wrong decisions I have seen were made by someone who raised two great kids, seems sensible in any way I can think to evaluate, yet is responsible for some of the problems I mentioned earlier. It leads me to the conclusion that arrest and seizure of persons should be done by officers with proper warrants and any other participation should be limited to providing for the children who have to be removed by the police with a warrant to do so (unless of course there are immediate and compelling circumstances like intervening in significant abuse in progress).

I don't know what the solution is either... but neglect, abuse etc are crimes and IMO warrant a police officer to make a judgement call that they might not be qualified enough to make on their own. In that case, I don't see anything wrong with having an entity that the police department can rely on to come out and make that call for them and then clean up the mess to allow the police officer to get back on his beat.

The system isn't perfect and with all positions of authority, if it goes unchecked it could potentially evolve into a tyrannical one. The problem I see with powers of position is that there isn't proper checks in place to dissuade the holder of the position from overstepping their boundaries.

Police officers can shoot up the wrong truck, politicians can get Americans killed overseas, the IRS and the Federal Reserve can steal your money, DNR can storm animal shelters like SWAT teams and nothing happens to them. They get slapped on the wrist or given free passes... and therefore their power expands and the uncross-able line moves.

 

[churchmouse]

We must always remember that the reward is in the "doing" and payment for services rendered does not come in measurable quantities! CPS must be run by PEOPLE with these ideas in mind...not by faceless,emotionless,government employees.

We do these things for exactly what you say...the doing. We do look at successes and failures in everything we try so as to do things better the next time. Mentoring children is no different. One has to be flexible when dealing with children.

Agree that CPS need a total overhaul.

 

[lucky4034]

Let me quote my Dad..who is deceased,in response to someone who questioned his hands-on correction that we so richly deserved. When he was asked how far he would go to cause us to obey him.."As far as it takes". I feel sorry for children who are in control of their own behavior.

Again... your statement assumes your dad was the lowest standard of parenting. Give him more credit than that

Your dad was a good parent correct? I'm assuming that 88GT is a great parent also... I can tell she loves her kids and puts a lot of time into raising them from her responses here! So why then are you using your parenting techniques as proof that there doesn't need to be a check for bad parenting? You aren't making a coherent argument here... you are simply patting yourselves on the back for not needing CPS or anyone else to step in and parent for you.

You guys are contradicting yourselves and don't even realize it...unless of course you are silly enough to believe that your great parenting is the lowest standard in the world and all parents are as good or better than yourselves. Some parents are **** and don't deserve kids and should be in jail for the **** they subject their children too... its a fact.

Some parents just need a wake up call and others need assistance and encouragement to grow into decent parents.

As cliche as it sounds... children are the future of this country and planet. Having some built in mechanisms to ensure that the really horrible parents aren't allowed to **** up this countries future is worth a little bit of federal/state funding IMHO.

As long as those mechanisms aren't left to evolve into something tyrannical and have their authority checked in some way, then I see a strong need for it.

 

[88GT]

Whats funny is that judging by her quote and the way she approaches this subject, its obvious she considers herself the lowest standard of parenting. Apparently she is completely oblivious to the horrible things other parents subject their chattel to... ...well, either that or she really is the lowest standard of parenting and thinks its ok?

How do you get I think of myself as the lowest standard of parenting from that quote? Aside from the fact that it's not true--I don't rate myself against others--it doesn't even logically follow.

For the reading comprehension impaired, I will try this again, though experience tells me when you find yourself on the losing side of the argument you'll continue to argue without regard to the information being presented: from a legal standpoint--meaning how my role as parent is seen by the state--my children should be considered chattel. IOW, I should be able to parent as I see fit without a mountain of do-good-ers rushing in to take my kids because they don't approve of my choices. CPS shouldn't be able to arbitrarily construe my refusal to let them enter without a warrant as evidence of hiding abuse and use their emergency powers of kidnapping to make off with my kids. The effort to deprive me of my children and my role as their parent should be as monumentally cumbersome to the state as it is deprive me of any of my other possessions. THAT is the context of my children as chattel. Nothing more. If you can show I'm physically harming my kids within the context of the law when applied to adults (assault, murder, etc; I don't approve of separate laws for separate classes of people), then prosecute me. Otherwise, MYOB. I am well aware of the way other parents treat their children. Unlike you though, I don't presume to be a better decision-maker and co-opt the state to force them to comply with the way I want things done.

It does pain me to see parents make choices that aren't in the best interest of their children. Like all of you who insist that government schools are perfectly acceptable solutions. I mean, what are you telling your children when you truck them off to let some agent of the state indoctrinate them? Sorry, Junior, mommy and daddy just don't care enough about you to sacrifice our selfish desires for the new car, bigger house, boat, time away from you (because you just get on my nerves) to fulfill all of my obligations as a parent. So I'm pawning you off to the cheapest bidder where I have no legal recourse or input into your education. Hope for the best. Let's keep our fingers crossed, mkay? (Should I use purple fpr that?) (I was wrong. I do compare myself to other parents. I'm ****ing awesome!) But aside from physical use of force to cause injury, it's not my place/role/job/authority--or yours or the state's--to interfere. And the standard of "horrible things other parents subject their children to" is what? Draw that line for me. That immutable line where everything on one side is absolutely, incontrovertibly wrong, where the parents go to jail and the kids get re-homed, and everything on the other side is indisputably okay and you're content with letting them continue on the accpetable path until they cross that line.

We don't have an alternative to CPS because they were put out of business by the state. Competition for the money got too fierce I guess.

 

[traderdan]

Again... your statement assumes your dad was the lowest standard of parenting. Give him more credit than that

Incorrect...He should have been paid to teach child rearing classes,and write books instead of fools like Dr.Spock. We need to engender a feeling of responsibility in parents again,for the behavior of their children.The decline of our culture is evident in children who are simply an unwanted side effect of sexual pleasure,or the whim of a female who could not afford a puppy.

 

[hornadylnl]

Welcome to America where I can control my neighbors grass but not how he raises his children.

 

[steveh_131]

It seems that most who want to put such matters on the police and the courts would be the same ones who believe the police and courts do too much as it is and want to cut their funding and/or restrict their authority.

Not true. Police and courts are one of the few legitimate functions of a government. I have never advocated arbitrarily cutting their funding.

I don't understand how "fiscal responsibility" can be preached yet people want to put more on the police. Every time I've worked with CPS they have only had the kids best interest in mind. I am not talking about theoretical cases, these were real kids that had been beaten, raped, or worse. Most recently a woman walked in with two children that were incredibly dirty. She said, "I am hearing voices. I am thinking about to killing my kids." CPS came in and put them into a safe environment. Please show me the malevolence.

I agree that unchecked power is never good but ultimately they have to answer to SOMEONE.

What would you say the answer is then? Plenty of talk about what shouldn't be but no answers.

Umm, the courts and (often) the police are involved now.

So, you wave a magic wand and abolish CPS/DCS/EIEIO, what do you think the courts will do but recreate CPS/DCS/EIEIO?

If you like, we could make a list of the functions of CPS and discuss which should be done away with and which should be reassigned. I'm not sure that I have all of the answers to this question, but it would make for an interesting discussion.

I am pretty sure, however, that we could get rid of the entire corrupt agency with no replacements and be better off. Would bad things still happen? Of course. They're happening now. I would wager that these agencies barely scratch the surface in correcting the awful things that happen to children.