Coronovirus IV

[jamil]

I see HM's point as a dramatic example of the extremes. Kinda like those memes that compare the least attractive people on the Left to the most attractive people on the Right. Neither sample is intended to be comprehensive, nor even a representative sample. The examples are selected for dramatic effect.

It doesn't change the "truth" of the statement - those people are either Left/Right unattractive/attractive. It is also a relatively accurate, if narrow, reflection in the evolution of rhetoric around the health care debate.

If conservatives are saying, **** old people, I stand corrected. I don't think that's what they're saying. I see this as a line where there are opposing actions/consequences and there are people forming dichotomous sides, who pick common points along the continuum. So one side is saying, why make everyone comply with something that they don't believe is effective anyway, when it should be on the individuals to take their own precautions. And there are some logical problems with that which are fair to point out. And then the other side of the dichotomy is the people who say let's wear masks, or shut things down, or whatever, so that we stop the spread;it's the right thing to do. And there are some logical problems with that too.

I think both points are reasonable to hold given the facts we know. I don't think either side has a valid reason to club the other, or mob shame. But I don't believe it's reasonable to force government mandates.

 

[T.Lex]

If conservatives are saying, **** old people, I stand corrected.

Well, I don't know if they are conservative (or what their position was on Obama Death Panels), but some people are basically saying that. Even here on INGO.

I think both points are reasonable to hold given the facts we know. I don't think either side has a valid reason to club the other, or mob shame. But I don't believe it's reasonable to force government mandates.

Agreed on that.

 

[JettaKnight]

I see HM's point as a dramatic example of the extremes. Kinda like those memes that compare the least attractive people on the Left to the most attractive people on the Right. Neither sample is intended to be comprehensive, nor even a representative sample. The examples are selected for dramatic effect.

It doesn't change the "truth" of the statement - those people are either Left/Right unattractive/attractive. It is also a relatively accurate, if narrow, reflection in the evolution of rhetoric around the health care debate.

Yeah Hough, you should put it in a meme - know that it will be unquestionable then and exempt from any scrutiny.

 

[HoughMade]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/...9tOHPGAHWFVO3DfslkJ0KsDEPQpWmPbKtp6EsoVV2Qs1Q

That is the information the posts I've seen are based upon, but the posts put a spin on it.

 

[HoughMade]

.

 

[jamil]

I want to see links to people saying the equivalent of "**** old people". Otherwise, it seems to me you're saying they're saying things they aren't saying.

 

[HoughMade]

Yeah Hough, you should put it in a meme - know that it will be unquestionable then and exempt from any scrutiny.

I kinda, sorta thought it phrased like a meme...but I guess we see how turnabout is treated. If it makes people happy:

I doubled down and made it self-deprecating.

 

[Ingomike]

That is the information the posts I've seen are based upon, but the posts put a spin on it.

Math is spin?

The dem/media complex has created an environment where the public grossly overestimate the risks and deaths associated with the wuhu flu as evidenced by the Galup/Franklin Templeton survey work recently reported.

It is true. (I did not personally check the math.) Is there some reason you don't want this to be put out? This is critical data that should help inform those truly at risk, which seems to be those with 2.6 comorbidities.

Can we stop assigning immoral motives on those with a different opinions? It is low hanging fruit to say those who want all these restrictions want to ruin freedom, the economy and the country, but that would be another strawman...

 

[HoughMade]

Math is spin?

The dem/media complex has created an environment where the public grossly overestimate the risks and deaths associated with the wuhu flu as evidenced by the Galup/Franklin Templeton survey work recently reported.

It is true. (I did not personally check the math.) Is there some reason you don't want this to be put out? This is critical data that should help inform those truly at risk, which seems to be those with 2.6 comorbidities.

Can we stop assigning immoral motives on those with a different opinions? It is low hanging fruit to say those who want all these restrictions want to ruin freedom, the economy and the country, but that would be another strawman...

I like information.

..but I have seen people interpret this as: "only 9,000 people have died from COVID"...conveniently leaving off the "alone" part and, I guess, suddenly trusting the CDC. From multiple postings I have seen (elsewhere), it's like we don't count the people with underlying comorbidities in the death total? Why? Really, the only question is whether the person would have died when they did but-for the COVID?

That there are multiple causes for a death does not mean that COVID did not cause a death. It changes nothing. There are frequently multiple causes for a death. This is why the death certificate form has these blanks:

Anyone who has been paying attention has ALWAYS known, that COVID primarily kills people with underlying physical ailments. This is not new. Only the specific numbers are.

My question is, then, so what? What is the policy people want now knowing the numbers?

If no policy change, then why did this go viral over the weekend?

Are people just now waking up to who COVID kills? That can't possibly be the case.

 

[T.Lex]

To offer another "burying the lede" angle, that means that of all the people who've died from COVID, at least 6% were otherwise completely healthy people. No obesity, no diabetes, no heart condition, no pulmonary issue, no nothing.

That seems like a relatively big number.

Granted, we can't be sure what percentage of all infected that is. Still worth noting.

 

[Ingomike]

I like information.

..but I have seen people interpret this as: "only 9,000 people have died from COVID"...conveniently leaving off the "alone" part and, I guess, suddenly trusting the CDC. From multiple postings I have seen (elsewhere), it's like we don't count the people with underlying comorbidities in the death total? Why? Really, the only question is whether the person would have died when they did but-for the COVID?

That there are multiple causes for a death does not mean that COVID did not cause a death. It changes nothing. There are frequently multiple causes for a death. This is why the death certificate form has these blanks:

Anyone who has been paying attention has ALWAYS known, that COVID primarily kills people with underlying physical ailments. This is not new. Only the specific numbers are.

My question is, then, so what? What is the policy people want now knowing the numbers?

If no policy change, then why did this go viral over the weekend?

Are people just now waking up to who COVID kills? That can't possibly be the case.

My personal intent is to try to bring some rationality to quell the fears of folks that are truly scared. Like a friend terrified that their healthy one year old will get it. To give perspective to those that think that it is likely they can get it and die quickly. As the survey work cited earlier notes, the public is due to misinformation is misunderstanding the risk therefore misjudging a rational response.

 

[tsm]

Depends on how you look at it. Total deaths are about 3% of confirmed infected, so 6% of that means 0.18% died solely from the virus. Not a huge percentage and I’d guess some of those probably had undetected comorbidities (unlikely the entire 6% was autopsied).

 

[T.Lex]

Depends on how you look at it. Total deaths are about 3% of confirmed infected, so 6% of that means 0.18% died solely from the virus. Not a huge percentage and I’d guess some of those probably had undetected comorbidities (unlikely the entire 6% was autopsied).

Cool, its been awhile since we've had fun with numbers!

Figuring about half of the US population doesn't have any of the CDC-listed comorbidities, or ~150M. (I think that's low, because it seems like the USian population at large has at least some of those comorbidities.) So, let's say 75% of them get infected before there's a cure/vaccine/herd immunity. That would mean ~200k healthy people who end up dead. (150M * .75 * .0018)

Now let's look at those other 150M people with at least 1 comorbidity. Let's say 75% of them get infected. Let's not even use the .0282, but even round down to .02 (partly since the .03 is probably inflated, too). That's ~2.2M people. (150M * .75 * .02)

Put that together, and we're up to ~2.4M dead people from this before a cure/vaccine/herd immunity.

That's a big number.


Now let's look at the other 150M that have at least 1 comorbidity. Let's not even use the

 

[foszoe]

I've been punished before. It resulted in welps and crying. I think inconvenience would be more appropiate.

If you are that concerned with dying, maybe you SHOULD stay home?

My own father has health concerns, and has chosen to stay pretty well isolated thus far. I respect that, and certainly don't try to put him at additional risk.

But, that said, why should you and I be punished because someone else intentionally puts themselves at (what they consider a) risk?

 

[NKBJ]

Time after time when I see people putting my life at risk it makes me really angry and wanting to yell at them "Go park it back in your garage!"

 

[SheepDog4Life]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/...9tOHPGAHWFVO3DfslkJ0KsDEPQpWmPbKtp6EsoVV2Qs1Q

That is the information the posts I've seen are based upon, but the posts put a spin on it.

Yup, spun to say "only 6% died from COVID" (GateWay Pundit fake news headline) which explicitly implies that 94% died from something else.

 

[SwikLS]

Its amazing how some people want to live the lie.

 

[T.Lex]

Its amazing how some people want to live the lie.

Which lie?

There is no cake.

 

[BugI02]

I was referring to a specific post that made the rounds...and came here, over the weekend for me.

If I missed something, please break it down for me.



I get it...the economy.

"Death panels" were safe because we could accuse a political opponent of not caring about the sick and infirm for our own political gain and didn't really affect us, personally.

The current situation is different because it costs us something, to a greater or lesser extent and saying: "well heck, only old and sick people are affected...so what?" supports our political position.

The money makes all the difference.

Maybe you should try to come up with a strategy for self-preservation that only involves action by you, then you wouldn't feel the need to constrain the behavior of others to make you feel safe. N95 + goggles?

While you're at it, perhaps think outside the box of your own situation. How would you feel if you owned a restaurant rather than were a lawyer. It's beyond just the inconvenience, but to acknowledge that you'll have to give up belittling the people who want unnecessary restrictions to be lifted so businesses can perhaps survive - and you would have to acknowledge that some are seeing the work of multiple generations destroyed. Here in Ohio, kitchens and bars have been ordered to close at 10 and the restaurants themselves at eleven, all as a form of collective punishment because some people (mostly young) congregate closely in bars until the wee hours and that is postulated, but not proven, to be a source of elevated infection - because it is all about the numbers and not the outcomes. Perhaps the people who don't feel safe unless everyone is masked should be the ones required to alter their behavior and order out or get home delivery or have a younger relative pick things up for them. I get the same vibe off the peroration about how difficult this might be for that class of people that I get from the people saying showing up at a polling place to vote with proper ID is too difficult, that they just don't want to make the effort

 

[SwikLS]

Which lie?

There is no cake.

The lie that this virus is so deadly that we need business shutdowns and mask mandates.