"Cops are experts gun handlers"

[Blue Tile Spook]

I'm picturing being diapered, hugged, and frisked in a church...I'm feeling simultaneously comforted, excited, and like I'm going to hell.

Hahahaahahaaha!!!!

 

[JBusch8899]

I'm attacking from all points.

One of the initiators of this drive, is a state cop himself, though he infrequently attends services. He seems to think that LE are consummate professionals that never screw up, and because of the thoroughness of background checks, cops are more honest. His wife is well liked, and believes all the BS he spews, making his position even more dangerous. I figure that if he is told that he can't carry, he won't be around anymore either.

Another is a former corrections officer, who pretty much believes the same thing, but goes to the extreme to state that all firearms need be abolished; to include most of all LE, military, ranchers, etc. The kick of it all, is that he has guns himself, because he's rationalized that he needs to protect himself, due to his job and interactions with violent criminals at Plainfield Correctional facility.

You guys might be right that I will have to find another church, but I'm going to go down swinging first.

 

[IndyMonkey]

When I go to someones house to bid work I ask if they have got any other estimates. If They say yes and tell me who it is, I dont bad mouth them if they do terrible work. When you bad mouth them it doesnt make you look very good.

I would suggest spending more time on your positives and not even bring up statistics on police officers.

 

[Hotdoger]

Leave the ELC church anyway. Any christian denomination that approves of lesbian and homsexual pastors is in TOTAL biblical error.

 

[Stickfight]

I can't imagine how you could convince religious officials of anything by bringing evidence into the discussion.

Their beliefs about the fundamental nature of reality aren't evidence based, why would they base policy on it?

 

[Tactical Dave]

Leave the ELC church anyway. Any religion that approves of lesbianism and homsexuaity is in TOTAL biblical error.

I fixed your post for you

I don't beleive in female preacher's/pastor's/whatever......... they just ignoore the "women should keep silent during worship" scripture and one or two others. Before people jump on me, it is not talking about singing and all that....... but that is a different topic for a different day.

You guys might be right that I will have to find another church, but I'm going to go down swinging first.

So in short your gun's are more important then your church? I am ot at all trying to be rude or anything but you are pretty much saying you may have to find another church that is more gun firendly.........

Im all for guns and could case less if the members at my church have them but I don't but them over God (just saying that is how it is coming across).
Hopefully you are just talking about finding another congregation with the same religion but even the only reason someone would do that is because they are putting guns first...

I have left churches before (still the sam religion) but it was not because of guns.

I do realize that to some church is not as important as it is to others.

 

[Joe Williams]

I fixed your post for you

I don't beleive in female preacher's/pastor's/whatever......... they just ignoore the "women should keep silent during worship" scripture and one or two others. Before people jump on me, it is not talking about singing and all that....... but that is a different topic for a different day.




So in short your gun's are more important then your church? I am ot at all trying to be rude or anything but you are pretty much saying you may have to find another church that is more gun firendly.........

Im all for guns and could case less if the members at my church have them but I don't but them over God (just saying that is how it is coming across).
Hopefully you are just talking about finding another congregation with the same religion but even the only reason someone would do that is because they are putting guns first...

I have left churches before (still the sam religion) but it was not because of guns.

I do realize that to some church is not as important as it is to others.

A church that has an anti-gun agenda has a political agenda that is destructive to human freedom, and that advocates slavery. Neither of these are are worthy of support. God himself gave us freedom. To continue to belong to a church that advocates against freedom, and thereby lend your support to such a philosophy, goes against the will of God.

 

[JBusch8899]

So in short your gun's are more important then your church? I am ot at all trying to be rude or anything but you are pretty much saying you may have to find another church that is more gun firendly.........

I'm stating that our Earthly life is truly a gift from God, that we're supposed to cherish it and not throw it away, or allow it to be thrown away.

I'm stating that self defense, or the defense of another, is a natural right; ergo, a right from God. (Luke 22:36-38) (2 Corinthians 11:26-27) (John 15:14)

I'm stating that the rights bestowed to us from God are more important than the church that perverts His word.

So yes, I suppose that in a sense, my firearms are more important than my church.

 

[cosermann]

So in short your gun's are more important then your church? I am ot at all trying to be rude or anything but you are pretty much saying you may have to find another church that is more gun firendly.........

In addition to JBusch's comments, I'd add that a church's position on self-defense reflects its understanding of very basic biblical truth (as I pointed out earlier with the 6th commandment). If they can't get something that simple correct, imagine where they're likely to end up on more complex issues/questions (some of which have been mentioned in this thread).

It's no accident that there are some strong theological correlations between anti- and pro- 2nd Amendment denominations.

So yeah, a church's position on this issue is one of many litmus tests that can be applied.

Back to ideas for JBush's case. I've compiled a list of church shootings over the years (mostly in the U.S.) going all the way back to the St. James Church Massacre in 1993 (South Africa). One of the things that is pretty clear is that, in a group setting, violent, determined resistance to attackers cuts the number of victims significantly; by about half - difficult to do with out the means to do so.

JBusch, hope this all works out well.

 

[Ogre]

Try to organize as many people as possible to LEave with you, and let them know your money will be leaving with you....

 

[JBusch8899]

Try to organize as many people as possible to LEave with you, and let them know your money will be leaving with you....

Believe me, if my plan fails, that is exactly what will happen.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

I have left churches before (still the sam religion)

Who is Sam?

 

[public servant]

Who is Sam?

Church of Sam

 

[JBusch8899]

Church of Sam

Would the messiah then be "son of sam"?

 

[dom1104]

huh.

I gotta say man, I mean, no offense but Lutherans have been going to the WAY liberal side of things for decades.

I would bolt, a long time ago. But thats just me. Things are happy here in Baptist land. We get together and swap AR parts after prayer meeting on Wednesday night

Its kinda like complaining that California is too liberal.

My first thought is, "well, duh."

 

[Roadie]

Personally, I would write a counter proposal on the PRO side of things, and save the LEO AD/ND thing for rebuttals if it gets to the discussion stage...

 

[Lex Concord]

As a long-time Lutheran, this is just one of MANY reasons I occasionally visit, but would never join an ELCA member church.

There are numerous LCMS churches, and even a few WELS and ELS churches in Indiana.

Though, as we all know, Christ told Peter to put his sword away because he wasn't a Centurion.

 

[Lex Concord]

huh.

I gotta say man, I mean, no offense but Lutherans have been going to the WAY liberal side of things for decades.

I would bolt, a long time ago. But thats just me. Things are happy here in Baptist land. We get together and swap AR parts after prayer meeting on Wednesday night

Its kinda like complaining that California is too liberal.

My first thought is, "well, duh."

ELCA and ALC went that way looong ago, and LCMS is split between "relatively conservative" and pretty liberal.

WELS and ELS churches tend to be quite conservative in doctrine, though arms of any kind are rarely discussed.

 

[Tactical Dave]

I'm stating that our Earthly life is truly a gift from God, that we're supposed to cherish it and not throw it away, or allow it to be thrown away.

I'm stating that self defense, or the defense of another, is a natural right; ergo, a right from God. (Luke 22:36-38) (2 Corinthians 11:26-27) (John 15:14)

I'm stating that the rights bestowed to us from God are more important than the church that perverts His word.

So yes, I suppose that in a sense, my firearms are more important than my church.

When it comes to church the only issues I worry about/will argue over oare those that I think will cost me or someone else their soul......... gun's are not one of them because I don't think God will frown over people not being able to have guns in church.

I guess I should have said "to some their gun's are more importhen then their religion".... not church.


I mean to say same, not sam, I do not belong to the church of Sam haha.


I do find it silly that some congregations get into these argument's, carry concealed then it is out of sight out of mind, carry open and that is your right to do so but be prepaired for people to start asking questions.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

For what it's worth.....

Once in the hoary past of my law enforcement career one of our female officers (and no, I'm not bashing female LEO's) was at home getting ready to report for duty. This was back in the day when we still carried wheelguns. She took out her S&W model 10 and cocked it single-action. This was a mistake, since she didn't have a clue how to UNcock the piece. I should point out that my agency, the Cincinnati Police Department, gives only the mandated state minimum of firearms training, they do that very grudgingly, and it shows.

She holstered the pistol, FULLY COCKED AND LOADED and drove to the station. She walked into the squad room, drew the cocked revolver, began waving it around the room and saying, "DO ANY OF YOU GUYS KNOW HOW TO UNDO THIS?"

Anecdote #2...

I had been assigned to break in a recruit whose first Field Training Officer had been able to do nothing with her. One very slow night I found I had nothing to evaluate her on, so I had her pull into a deserted parking lot, take out our shotgun and show me the procedure for unloading and then reloading the piece.

She promptly got a shell stuck under the shell carrier which I had to clear. Later I saw her first FTO who happened to be on SWAT. I kidded him about how his recruit couldn't handle the shotgun properly.

He said, "OH MAN, I NEVER TOUCH THOSE SHOTGUNS. I'M AFRAID OF THOSE THINGS!"

I repeat that this man was a SWAT Officer!

Cops are firearms experts? Give me a break. I was always more afraid of my fellow LEOs behind me than I was of the armed badguys in front of me.