"Cops are experts gun handlers"

[JBusch8899]

I don't think you'll win this one. You're completely correct, but you'll probably only end up convincing them that no one should have a gun. What denomination is this?

Right now, the proposal is all or nothing. If the congregation does decide to ban all firearms, to include LE, then that would be in direct conflict with the synod; as well as disarm those LE already members of the congregation.

I like my church and am hoping that those who have supported such an action, will either see the light, or leave themselves. In any case, I need not find another place to worship.

Oh, ELCA = Evangelical Lutheran Churches of America.

 

[Tactical Dave]

Im glad my church pretty much sticks to the religous stuff and that's it. I know at least one of the elders does not like gun's but he does not go around asking if anyone has a gun on them and nobody open carries if they do have one.

The last ne I was at (same religion) there was one person that carried in her purse and a lot of people knew it and nobdy said anything, you just did not talk about it.
Granted I don't think I would trust her shots in a high strees shooting enviorment though.

If people are not open carrying and stay quiet about it then chances are high that nobody will ever say anything. For all I know a lot of people in my church carry.... at the last one even the preacher carried when during non "church" times and had it locked up in his office during church...... and I and the churches I go to are fairly conservative....... not extreme consevative but conservative.

I visted at one for a while and one of the memebrs is IMPD and I am sure he carried, nobody asked, nobody cared because out of sight is out of mind.

Once I get my LTCH will I carry to church? I don't know yet, if I do will I tell anyone? No, will I open carry? No, if someone like one of the elders ask's will I lie about it? No but chances are they will not, the one that does not like gun's has to know that I and other's do and he has not said anything....


This may really anger some people but if you are picking your religion or church because of their views on gun's or will leavethat religion/church then that should tell you something honestly.......... or even if it is a factor at all then that should tell you something or make you think.

 

[Fletch]

You can worship your God anywhere you wish, I have changed churches many times in the past.

Agreed.

Concealed means CONCEALED.

But it gets dicey if you belong to an exceptionally "huggy" church.

 

[ATM]

But it gets dicey if you belong to an exceptionally "huggy" church.

Well, that "depends" on the average age of the congregation.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Agreed.



But it gets dicey if you belong to an exceptionally "huggy" church.

hug me and you get shot

 

[Fletch]

hug me and you get shot

Somebody needs a hug.

 

[ATM]

Don't "pamper" him.

 

[MinuteMan47]

Or apply to the local PD/Sheriff or ISP and become a LEO, then you don't have to worry about places that don't allow non-LEOs to carry firearms.

...Just like Uncle Ted ! ! ! (Ted Nugent)

 

[Fletch]

Don't "pamper" him.

You're clearly not thinking straight. Diapers are puffy and thick; they would aid in concealment.

Hugs on the other hand can amount to a frisking... I was once hugged in church and my gun discovered as a result. It wasn't a problem at the time, but it could have been.

 

[steveh_131]

I do not understand how pointing out examples of gun mishandling, by cops or otherwise, helps your case in any way.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I do not understand how pointing out examples of gun mishandling, by cops or otherwise, helps your case in any way.

cause its fun

 

[cosermann]

I commend you for preparing to oppose this action, and wish you the best in this endeavor. However, I don't think you're going to get very far with the ELCA. Many/most of the mainstream, liberal denominations in the US are on the record as being anti-gun (ELCA, Episcopal USA, PCUSA, UMC, US Conf. of Catholic Bishops etc.). It's a natural outgrowth of their liberal theology.

But, if you can turn the tide in your local congregation, great. Can't hurt to try.

If you're willing to leave over this, FWIW, I do not think you'd find this same attitude in the LCMS, and it's still a flavor of Lutheranism (albeit a more conservative one). Best wishes.

Hey, let's turn this into a religious thread! Yeah!

 

[public servant]

Seriously though...it's probably time to find a new church.

That said, don't be surprised if one of our LE members starts a thread soliciting similar incidents on the part of average citizens.

That would be just mean... ...and counterproductive.

But we could start with this one.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...gunsmith_your_loaded_pistol_a_news_story.html

 

[Panama]

Right now, the proposal is all or nothing. If the congregation does decide to ban all firearms, to include LE, then that would be in direct conflict with the synod; as well as disarm those LE already members of the congregation.

I like my church and am hoping that those who have supported such an action, will either see the light, or leave themselves. In any case, I need not find another place to worship.

Oh, ELCA = Evangelical Lutheran Churches of America.

Sadly, it sounds to me like you are swimming up stream in a swift current!

In your words,

Due to the gradual influx of a left leaning congregation

I admire the fight in you, but you do realize, this is only the start?
If they succeed in getting this ban, what do you think the "left leaners" will want to change next?
And they will keep changing your church, until it suits their "left leaning" mind set!

Me personally, (not saying what you should do) there is no way I could sit elbow to elbow with a bunch of "left leaning church changing Obama voters"!

It would be a new church for me.
I do wish you good luck in your fight!

 

[rambone]

Rethink this!!

I was going to say something along these lines as well. I think the argument you are building won't validate your ability to carry, but rather its results would tend to indicate that even LE shouldn't carry. If you present them with a list of ND's by LE's whats to stop them from saying..."Wow, I guess we should just ban guns outright!".

I would collect data that would strengthen my position, instead of trying to weaken theirs.

I do not understand how pointing out examples of gun mishandling, by cops or otherwise, helps your case in any way.

These guys are correct. You should absolutely stay away from creating a list of gun accidents!! Totally wrong approach!


Make a list of how people have saved lives because they were properly armed. There are probably plenty of stories that actually happened inside of churches!


This way they can see the value of being armed, rather than just more reasons to hate weapons.




Oh.... and if they don't change their mind, write them a nice letter about how you will be changing churches and taking as many people with you as you can.

The fact that your church is so "political" that they feel it necessary to have a position on guns in the first place would make me run far, far away. And certainly don't donate to these people.

 

[steveh_131]

You: "I want to bring my gun into church."

Your church: "Sorry, they're too dangerous. Only cops can safely carry them in church."

You: "FALSE! Cops can't carry them safely EITHER! HAH! Now can I bring my gun into church?"

 

[cosermann]

I like my church and am hoping that those who have supported such an action, will either see the light, or leave themselves. In any case, I need not find another place to worship.

You can hope.

But, suppose they don't see the light and don't leave? Frankly, unless they have a theological and/or worldview change, I wouldn't expect it.

Suppose your LEO examples of poor gun handling elicit the reaction, "You're right, we should just ban them for everyone, LEO or not." (Regardless of whether they can legally do that or not, ban LEO carry that is.) I'm guessing that would be most consistent with their logic (although the ELCA position exempts law enforcement). As others have pointed out, this may not be a very effective line of argument.

How does that case work out?

Here's another suggestion, if you think it might carry weight in your congregation:

Since this is a church, try reasoning from the scripture (radical, I know). You could start with the sixth commandment. All the commandments are two-sided. The "thou shalts" imply the corresponding "thou shalt nots" and vice versa. In other words, every commandment requires certain duties and forbids certain sins. That's 10 Commandments 101.

So, on to the 6th commandment which is, "Thou shalt not kill," i.e. in the sense of 'murder.'

The forbidden sins are obviously, "the taking away of our own life or the life of our neighbor, unjustly, or whatsoever tendeth thereunto."

However, most Christians do not think about the duties required, namely, "all lawful endeavors to preserve our own life, and the life of others" - which includes the just defense thereof against violence (and by implication access to the tools to do so most effectively).

I'm still not sure how it works out in your church polity to advocate against a denominational position, but if you're willing to try, more power to you. The truth is on your side.

Reference to one authoritative example of the ELCA position:
http://www.elca.org/~/media/Files/What%20We%20Believe/Social%20Issues/community%20violence/CommunityViolence.pdf

See page 4 of the linked pdf for the following excerpts: "The ELCA also advocates in favor of gun control," and footnote #8, "On the basis of a resolution on community violence adopted by the 1993 Churchwide Assembly, which called for “passage and strict enforcement of local, state, and national legislation that rigidly controls manufacture, importation, exportation, sale, purchase, transfer, receipt, possession and transportation of handguns, assault weapons and assaultlike weapons and their parts, excluding rifles and shotguns used for hunting and sporting purposes, for use other than law enforcement and military purposes.”

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

May I ask what prompted this change in the Church? You just wrote "now in a position to consider..." A bad incident? Someone bringing the issue of firearms to the Pastor's attention?

 

[SavageEagle]

My question is this: Why are you making a case against LEO's being able to carry? Wouldn't that prompt them to just ban everyone from carrying on church property? Why not just bring up the woman from, I think it was CO, that stopped the kid that went to several churches shooting up the congregation? I think that would be a better argument, but then again, I don't really know your church either.

Either way, good luck!

 

[dross]

You're clearly not thinking straight. Diapers are puffy and thick; they would aid in concealment.

Hugs on the other hand can amount to a frisking... I was once hugged in church and my gun discovered as a result. It wasn't a problem at the time, but it could have been.

I'm picturing being diapered, hugged, and frisked in a church...I'm feeling simultaneously comforted, excited, and like I'm going to hell.