"Cops are experts gun handlers"

[JBusch8899]

My church synod (ELCA) currently supports gun control. In a statement in 1993, the assembly resolved the following:

"Passage and strict enforcement of local, state and national legislation that rigidly controls manufacture, importation, exportation, sale, purchase, transfer, receipt, possession and transportation of handguns, assault weapons and assault-like weapons and their parts, excluding rifles and shotguns used for hunting and sporting purposes, for use other than law enforcement and military purposes."

Due to the gradual influx of a left leaning congregation, my church is now in a position to consider a ban upon the carrying of firearms upon church property, as well as at church events. The only exception to this ban, would be police officers. The rationale stated, is that no one would have to worry of a police officer creating a hazard, as they are "experts" in "firearms handling", as well as being more trustworthy, and unlikely to use a firearm while in a "stressed emotional state" or for "criminal activity". Additionally, it has been argued that this would encourage police officers to attend our church, and provide protection, when appropriate.

I find the entire proposal, as well as the rationale, ludicrous.

As one part of my argument against such, I am putting together verifiable sources of police officers involved in:

• ND/AD incidents
• all criminal activities involving the use of a firearm
• any serious criminal activities
• and incidents of LE as mental defectives

I have googled many documented cases already, but would appreciate your help in accomplishing this task, as many incidents are not available via the internet, or information is not complete

PLEASE, NO COP BASHING AND STAY ON TOPIC!!!

The format that I am utilizing to document these incidents, are as follows:

• Date
• Location
• Classification:
• --------------ND/AD
• --------------all criminal activities/use of a firearm
• --------------any serious criminal activities
• --------------LEO as mental defective
• Incident synopsis

An example of the above:
4/11/2006
Tampa, FL
ND
A U.S. DEA special agent, Lee Paige, negligently discharged his sidearm and wounded himself, while conducting a gun safety presentation to school children in a classroom in the Orlando Youth Ministry Golf Association. Paige's words immediatly prior to the NG, "I am the only in this room professional enough, that I know of, to carry this Glock .40."

 

[Fletch]

 

[Andre46996]

This thread is gonna go bad real quick... IBTL!!

 

[rhart]

Probably easier to just go a block down the street to a new church. On the other hand, I guess I just haven't found a church I like well enough to fuss about.

 

[wtfd661]

I'm a LEO and would be against your churches position, but to have a truly valid report to give to them wouldn't you need to have the number of LEO ND/AD (and other screw ups) and compare that to the number of non LEO ND/AD (and other screw ups), of course then it would seem you would need to get the number of owners of firearms vs percentage of ND/AD for both groups to get the "real story".

You could get all other Pro-2nd Amendment church members to unite against the anti's and if that doesn't help, then I would look for a new church. Plenty of those out there that support the 2nd Amendment

Either way, good luck to you.

 

[shooter521]

Enough with the "IBTL" stuff, guys. This is a legitimate request/project, and I don't have a problem with this thread going forward as long as it does not violate any forum rules or get into wanton cop-bashing. That said, don't be surprised if one of our LE members starts a thread soliciting similar incidents on the part of average citizens.

Finally, to the OP - perhaps a more constructive way to rebut the church's position would be to promote instances where citizens have thwarted crimes because they were armed, rather than to tear down the perceived gun-handling ability of police officers.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Probably easier to just go a block down the street to a new church. On the other hand, I guess I just haven't found a church I like well enough to fuss about.

Or apply to the local PD/Sheriff or ISP and become a LEO, then you don't have to worry about places that don't allow non-LEOs to carry firearms.

 

[mrjarrell]

JBusch, you could try this link and then wade through the individual postings of incidents. They are all news accounts of the sort you're looking for. It's a lot of work but what you're looking for may well be in there.
There's also this aggregation site, too.

 

[Joe Williams]

This thread is gonna go bad real quick... IBTL!!

It shouldn't. The argument that police, as a whole, aren't "expert gun handlers" isn't cop bashing. It's simple fact. Lots really don't care about guns at all. I knew some that we had to help qualify, and there are plenty of stories of cops and NDs, like the one in New Jersey who was drinking some beers with a buddy after shift while cleaning their Glocks (heck, at least they tried to clean their guns, I knew some who wouldn't unless ordered to) and one of them ended up shooting the cop's boy dead as a doornail. Stories of cops losing or forgetting their guns somewhere abound. They are just people.

Still, I doubt the facts matter one whit to that congregation. You could stack a pile of incidents a mile high in front of such people, and they wouldn't care. The only choice for the OP that I see is to find another church, or continue lending his support to their anti-gun agenda. Gotta try, though, I reckon.

 

[level.eleven]

Finally, to the OP - perhaps a more constructive way to rebut the church's position would be to promote instances where citizens have thwarted crimes because they were armed, rather than to tear down the perceived gun-handling ability of police officers.

I was going to say something along these lines as well. I think the argument you are building won't validate your ability to carry, but rather its results would tend to indicate that even LE shouldn't carry. If you present them with a list of ND's by LE's whats to stop them from saying..."Wow, I guess we should just ban guns outright!".

I would collect data that would strengthen my position, instead of trying to weaken theirs.

 

[Fletch]

It shouldn't. The argument that police, as a whole, aren't "expert gun handlers" isn't cop bashing. It's simple fact.

You're right, but I've been called a cop basher for saying that very thing.

 

[Joe Williams]

You're right, but I've been called a cop basher for saying that very thing.

Well, some folks just wanna be victims. Doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread. I simply don't think the OP's approach will be successful. Nor do I think showing the myriad instances of where citizens have saved lives with their firearms will provide any benefit, even though some of those instances have occurred in churches. Anti-gunners are interested in control, not facts.

 

[dross]

Or apply to the local PD/Sheriff or ISP and become a LEO, then you don't have to worry about places that don't allow non-LEOs to carry firearms.

Allow me to rephrase, as I was deleted and infracted for my previous post:

That position is utterly ridiculous, and is at least a part of the reason that people here engage in what is sometimes IMO wrongly referred to as "cop bashing."

That's like saying, "If you don't like it that politicians are immune from the laws they pass, you should become a politician."

 

[E5RANGER375]

The only exception to this ban, would be police officers. The rationale stated, is that no one would have to worry of a police officer creating a hazard, as they are "experts" in "firearms handling", as well as being more trustworthy, and unlikely to use a firearm while in a "stressed emotional state" or for "criminal activity".

EXPERTS MORE TRUSTWORTHY MORE TRUSTWORTHY

i think that explains the way i feel.

you might wanna find a new church quick.

thats like saying every soldier is an expert with a gun or are more trustworthy because they have to go through an FBI background check. simply not true! I dont trust ANYONE more than myself.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Or apply to the local PD/Sheriff or ISP and become a LEO, then you don't have to worry about places that don't allow non-LEOs to carry firearms.

i dont have to worry about that anyways. concealed means concealed. find it.

 

[femurphy77]

This is an unfortunate incident that ended an officers life, I kind of hate to mention it but it dramatically makes your point.

Officer King Brown, Lawton Police Department


This isn't the incident I was actually looking for, a neighbor of mine was a SWAT member and he and a couple of buddies were playing quick draw out in his yard one day and one of his buddies accidentally shot the other guy. He survived the shooting but I don't remember how the disciplinary action turned out. I do know that my neighbor ended up doing time in the big house for trying to strong arm the local korean laundry/gambling hall. The old gal they tried to roust called the cops on themMan how I tried to keep his wife from being lonely, she was a babe.

 

[redneckmedic]

I like where your head is on this OP. I do agree that defending you side is better than convicting the LEO side. I wish that I was better at this kind of research to help you out more, but I'll try anyhow. Either way this issue ends, think their are two important things to remember.

1. You can worship your God anywhere you wish, I have changed churches many times in the past.
2. Concealed means CONCEALED.

 

[Tactical Dave]

Or apply to the local PD/Sheriff or ISP and become a LEO, then you don't have to worry about places that don't allow non-LEOs to carry firearms.

Blast my moderate color vision!!!!!!!! I don't do well on the stupid dot tests.

 

[CarmelHP]

I don't think you'll win this one. You're completely correct, but you'll probably only end up convincing them that no one should have a gun. What denomination is this?

 

[JBusch8899]

Thanks for the suggestions toward my argument, but I've given this a lot of thought, and have already documented the last ten years of the NRA's "armed citizen". I've also included large sections of John Lott's research to the defensive uses of firearms.

As one part of my argument against such, I am putting together verifiable sources of police officers involved in:

• ND/AD incidents
• all criminal activities involving the use of a firearm
• any serious criminal activities
• and incidents of LE as mental defectives