Bloomington Murder

[bwframe]

Yep, a lot of speculating.
My first thought when the sexual assault thing was reported;
A well off 50something guy partying hard with unemployed people half his age... hmmm.

 

[techres]

Yep, a lot of speculating.
My first thought when the sexual assault thing was reported;
A well off 50something guy partying hard with unemployed people half his age... hmmm.

Mine was that we usually don't listen to admitted murders about what the victim "did" to make them do the murder. Normally, we tend to discount their version of the story since the only certain "facts" of the case is that the guy took a knife over to another person's house and then stabbed the other one to death. Usually, we stop listening to any other excuse than "self defense".

I would have the same reaction if a guy had been killed by a pair of 25 year old girls who then claimed they did it cause the killer had assaulted them days before.

Did the killer call in the assault? Does anyone else confirm the story other than the mother of his child/GF? Does it matter more than it might help him with either sentencing or nullification?

I am curious. And I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. My first shot was at the homeless shelter.

But the killer's story sounds all sorts of BS to me.

 

[CarmelHP]

There have been plenty of rushes to judgement all around.

And exactly how does that argue against a venue change? If your prejudice is indicative of Monroe County attitudes, them a venue change would be appropriate.

 

[dross]

As a failed fiction writer, I realize now why I failed: lack of imagination. There are some folks on this thread who have a gift for intricate plot.

 

[Fargo]

Mine was that we usually don't listen to admitted murders about what the victim "did" to make them do the murder. Normally, we tend to discount their version of the story since the only certain "facts" of the case is that the guy took a knife over to another person's house and then stabbed the other one to death. Usually, we stop listening to any other excuse than "self defense".

I would have the same reaction if a guy had been killed by a pair of 25 year old girls who then claimed they did it cause the killer had assaulted them days before.

Did the killer call in the assault? Does anyone else confirm the story other than the mother of his child/GF? Does it matter more than it might help him with either sentencing or nullification?

I am curious. And I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. My first shot was at the homeless shelter.

But the killer's story sounds all sorts of BS to me.

The suspect is NOT an admitted "murderer". He admitted to stabbing someone, there is a huge difference. He isn't a "murderer" until he is convicted of "murder". So far no has proven anything about what he did.

The "victim," and I use that term very loosely, is an alleged rapist and apparently there are witnesses to that effect. Why are you so quick to impute the worst motives to this marine while unwilling to consider that what he says might be true?

Also, since you discount the marine's story out of hand, just what motive are you claiming he had to go stab this guy? Nothing was taken and there is no other apparent motive that I am aware of. Your position that since the marine says it happened, it must not have just doesn't make any sense.

Lastly, would you really be surprised or upset if it was proven that the marine was the victim of buttrape and he was acquitted or convicted of a lesser charge via jury nullification? Do you really think that someone who kills an unrepentant rapist in a heat of passion deserves to spend a minimum of 40 years in prison? How about if the killer was a victim of that sexual assault and was a freshly returned decorated veteran who had just come back from killing to protect your freedom?

Joe

 

[longbow]

there is much more to this story....It will make an interesting movie on subculture in a college town....The gay community will not be proud what will be shared in the near future....

There will be more than a few people outed to this subculture....The English department and others at IU are bracing for it.

 

[LPMan59]

The suspect is NOT an admitted "murderer". He admitted to stabbing someone, there is a huge difference. He isn't a "murderer" until he is convicted of "murder". So far no has proven anything about what he did. agreed.

Also, since you discount the marine's story out of hand, just what motive are you claiming he had to go stab this guy? i am not discounting his account out of hand, but pride and regret are certainly factors. big macho guys generally dont like people knowing they putt from the rough. how often does the biggest homophobe turn out to be a homosexual...paging Rev. Haggard for example. Nothing was taken and there is no other apparent motive that I am aware of. Your position that since the marine says it happened, it must not have just doesn't make any sense.

Do you really think that someone who kills an unrepentant rapist in a heat of passion deserves to spend a minimum of 40 years in prison? my problem with this is that the "heat of passion" occurred days after the alleged assault. if he went to confront his attacker and took a knife, that doesn't look good. he certainly had plenty of time to notify the authorities. and his girlfriend did too. How about if the killer was a victim of that sexual assault and was a freshly returned decorated veteran who had just come back from killing to protect your freedom? this is completely irrelevant to the case, unless the defense is PTSD or something.

Joe

just playing devil's advocate

 

[360]

Yep, a lot of speculating.
My first thought when the sexual assault thing was reported;
A well off 50something guy partying hard with unemployed people half his age... hmmm.

This stereotype could be moot. Lonely people can make money and bad decisions at the same time. It's unlikely we'll ever find out the reasoning behind this case, as the Herald-Times seems to only report what they hear on the scanner. They must have some sort of restrictions on reporters actually getting away from their desks and researching any stories. They are usually so full of misinformation, or missing information entirely, it's a wonder they can even create a story in the first place. And if there IS a cover-up, you can bet when the University tells the H-T not to publish the information, they will listen. The Herald-Times licks IU's *******.

 

[Fargo]

LPman,

I see your point, but macho-man gays generally don't go kill their putter either as that is one sure way to bring attention to the issue of whether or not they swing that way.

My last paragraph was purely in regard to jury nullification; not any legal defense. The defendant's character, background, history are absolutely relevant. No matter how grotesque the crime, a jury will still be willing to acquit a defendant they perceive sympathetically. Conversely, if they perceive a defendant as being unsympathetic that can make up for a host of other problems with the state's case.

Joe

 

[techres]

The suspect is NOT an admitted "murderer". He admitted to stabbing someone, there is a huge difference. He isn't a "murderer" until he is convicted of "murder". So far no has proven anything about what he did.

You take a knife to someone's house, stab them to death, and do it for any other reason than self defense you are a murder. That is a definition. And from what I gathered here, he admitted to that much of the case. Why is all that remains to be clarified.

The "victim," and I use that term very loosely, is an alleged rapist and apparently there are witnesses to that effect. Why are you so quick to impute the worst motives to this marine while unwilling to consider that what he says might be true?

Again, a man was stabbed to death in his own kitchen and was not by any account killed in a moment of self defense. And you have a problem with using "victim"? The marine, by the accounts in the paper (which admittedly could be wrong), admitted to the stabbing. Again, the why is at issue and short of any self defense claim I see nothing that won't keep from impugning him.

Also, since you discount the marine's story out of hand, just what motive are you claiming he had to go stab this guy? Nothing was taken and there is no other apparent motive that I am aware of. Your position that since the marine says it happened, it must not have just doesn't make any sense.

No. He went over with a knife and stabbed a guy to death. He did not take anything and so theft is unlikely. They knew each other and there are entries about the guy in dead dude's diary. That starts looking alot like what I am expecting. I am not discounting or counting either way because the guy is a marine.

Lastly, would you really be surprised or upset if it was proven that the marine was the victim of buttrape and he was acquitted or convicted of a lesser charge via jury nullification? Do you really think that someone who kills an unrepentant rapist in a heat of passion deserves to spend a minimum of 40 years in prison? How about if the killer was a victim of that sexual assault and was a freshly returned decorated veteran who had just come back from killing to protect your freedom?

Joe

We do not allow in any way for honor killings in this country. We don't let the Muslims get away with it and we don't let marines do it either. Ever.

If he stabbed an attacker in the heat of the moment this would be a self defense case. And nothing mentioned anywhere has pointed to that being the case. At most the marine went over for some kind of apology and when he did not get it, he stabbed the guy to death. And that is if you believe his story.

The claims against the prof are alleged. The dead guy on the floor of his kitchen are not alleged and the marine has NOT said "I didn't do it!".

You bring me a case of a man getting buttraped and managing to kill his attacker and I will let the guy off a thousand times. That is simple self defense. This does not appear to be that.

 

[Panama]

techres, I am with you all the way on this one.
However, "EEEEW" you said buttraped!

 

[Fargo]

You take a knife to someone's house, stab them to death, and do it for any other reason than self defense you are a murder. That is a definition. And from what I gathered here, he admitted to that much of the case. Why is all that remains to be clarified.

What is your citation for that "definition"? You can't make things up and then magically pronounce them "definitions". Self-defense is NOT the only legal defense to a murder charge, no matter what your "definition" says.

Again, a man was stabbed to death in his own kitchen and was not by any account killed in a moment of self defense. And you have a problem with using "victim"?

Yeah, IF the dude is a rapist he has in my book removed himself from the "victim" class and place himself solidly into the "pieces of garbage that don't deserve to live" class. It appears that your and my take on rape and rapists differs. I personally believe that rape should be a capital crime as it was for most of history.

No. He went over with a knife and stabbed a guy to death. He did not take anything and so theft is unlikely. They knew each other and there are entries about the guy in dead dude's diary. That starts looking alot like what I am expecting. I am not discounting or counting either way because the guy is a marine.

When you say the Marine's account looks like, and I quote "BS" but you can't give a single reason you sure as hell are discounting. Your reason for doing so is still a mystery to me.

We do not allow in any way for honor killings in this country. We don't let the Muslims get away with it and we don't let marines do it either. Ever.

WRONG, this was by no account an HONOR killing. Marrying a non-muslim is not a crime, BUTTRAPE IS! Once again, if you think the two are comparable, we have a very different view of what kind of an act rape is. As to whether or not we let him get away with it, that is up to the jury. In Indiana, the jury is the SOLE determiner or both fact and law.

If he stabbed an attacker in the heat of the moment this would be a self defense case. And nothing mentioned anywhere has pointed to that being the case. At most the marine went over for some kind of apology and when he did not get it, he stabbed the guy to death. And that is if you believe his story.

Never said it was self defense, in fact my first post pointed out this story does not appear to bolster any defense of law.

The claims against the prof are alleged. The dead guy on the floor of his kitchen are not alleged and the marine has NOT said "I didn't do it!".

Everything is alleged until proven in court. Just cause the paper publishes it and you believe it doesn't mean a dagnab thing.

You bring me a case of a man getting buttraped and managing to kill his attacker and I will let the guy off a thousand times. That is simple self defense. This does not appear to be that.

For the umpteenth time: I NEVER SAID IT WAS SELF-DEFENSE.


Best,

Joe

 

[techres]

This stereotype could be moot. Lonely people can make money and bad decisions at the same time. It's unlikely we'll ever find out the reasoning behind this case, as the Herald-Times seems to only report what they hear on the scanner. They must have some sort of restrictions on reporters actually getting away from their desks and researching any stories. They are usually so full of misinformation, or missing information entirely, it's a wonder they can even create a story in the first place. And if there IS a cover-up, you can bet when the University tells the H-T not to publish the information, they will listen. The Herald-Times licks IU's *******.

Agreed! Perhaps they are looking in some kind of database to see if there is a story beyond the police scanner.

It is sad.

 

[tenring]

I guess you can expect bad things to happen to you if you sexually assault a marine.

+1

 

[glockednlocked]

Well I am the first to admit I like most people jump to conclusions. I also admit my mistakes.I do think the homeless in Bloomington specifically the shalom center contribute to a great deal of our crime. That water hole draws the criminals in and they feed on the good and the weak. But I also said or a domestic and this seems to fall under that umbrella. I think there is much more to the story. I am sure much we will never know. It is sad one life lost another ruined. I think a defence for the defendant would be very hard here. A change of venue could help or just some very carefull jury selection. I think it comes down to do you trust the defendant's account of what happend, and that is an uphill battle to be a "victim" when you stand soaked in the "aggressor"s blood. I think there is a great deal going on in that kids head and perception is a reality, sometimes much more real than true reality

 

[HICKMAN]

I have said it for years, we are becoming more and more like Indianapolis.
Bank robberies, home invasions, now murder. Whats next?

Sad times in B-town.

hmmm... wonder why?

 

[Panama]

hmmm... wonder why?

I think you may be onto something there!

 

[glockednlocked]

Hickman you are very correct

 

[Indy317]

Lastly, would you really be surprised or upset if it was proven that the marine was the victim of buttrape and he was acquitted or convicted of a lesser charge via jury nullification? Do you really think that someone who kills an unrepentant rapist in a heat of passion deserves to spend a minimum of 40 years in prison? How about if the killer was a victim of that sexual assault and was a freshly returned decorated veteran who had just come back from killing to protect your freedom?

I have just one question: Could this be a case of a man, who has homosexual desires, submits to those desires, and then can't handle what just took place?

I don't care what "comes out" about this case. There are only a few people know what really happened: One is dead, one has lost his freedom, for now, and one likely has some sort of bias for the one who lost his freedom (the girlfriend). I just find it very odd that a young Marine ends up in the company of a 50 year old homosexual, likely ultra liberal, professor on a whim. Sorry, that alone would raise questions for me.

If, again if, the Marine was truly raped, then I would consider that if I was on the jury. That fact would play a big role in how I came to my verdict _and_ what I would recommend as a sentence (if juries still do that in these cases). I wish we all knew what really happened. There are plenty of freaky couples out in the world, and I find it hard to believe there has never been a gay or bi-sexual Marine.

Basically, if this was a "Oh, I can't deal with this. I can't believe I acted on these feelings I have had in my life. I am _not_ gay, I don't want to be gay." mindset, then I would have to say guilty of murder. However, if it really is a case of sexual assault, I couldn't convict on murder.

 

[Indy317]

there is much more to this story....It will make an interesting movie on subculture in a college town....The gay community will not be proud what will be shared in the near future....

There will be more than a few people outed to this subculture....The English department and others at IU are bracing for it.

Don't leave us hanging. I really want to know some more details here.