bird shot is bird brained for HD

[gunman41mag]

I have noticed people mentioning bird shot alot in home defense threads, what?? why?? do these people know the difference in bird shot and buck shot. If your family is in danger, are you shooting to neutralize the threat or are you trying to make them mad? save the bird shot for the birds. I go with 00 buck and my house will be the last one you invade.

I have 00 BUCK for defense, but I have alot of #4 & #6 boxes, At 20 feet it'll kill you if hit in the face or neck, If hit in the gut, you'll pray for a quick death

 

[snowman46919]

I lied, I would be worried about the mess.

 

[cosermann]

Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition, .357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?

Here's a good example of birdshot's effectiveness (or lack thereof). Took a solid hit to the side as well as some peripheral hits:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2010/12/mecosta_county_homeowner_fires.html

Telling excerpt: "Police think the suspect was not more seriously injured because he was wearing heavy clothing that stopped some of the birdshot."

Good thing he wasn't a determined attacker.

 

[snowman46919]

Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition, .357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?

Here's a good example of birdshot's effectiveness (or lack thereof). Took a solid hit to the side as well as some peripheral hits:

Mecosta County homeowner fires several shots at intruder, causing multiple injuries | MLive.com

So your fine with getting hit 7 times with high brass #6? Not to mention the source you cited recommended the following

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot,

 

[RelicHound]

I dont load my HD shotgun with light load bird shot but I know damn well it'll get the job done..anyone who doesn't believe it needs to get out and shoot some stuff with it and stop reading all the bull **** the interwebz commandos post. and I dont give a crap what kinda results you get from shooting a phone book or a 2x4..are people made of phone books or wood? umm no...Ive hunted my whole life and have seen first hand what bird shot at close range will do to FLESH AND BONE. bird shot at distances youll likely be shooting an attacker/intruder will eliminate any threat..Id bet my life on it. as I said earlier at distances less than 15 yards the shot barely has enough time to spread to be less effective...of course this does depend on the constriction of your choke but even with an open bore choke you're gonna throw a pattern like a slug at over 1200FPS...you hit something with almost 1oz of lead at that speed your gonna eff some crap up!
Are there better option for HD? well yeah...of course there is. but dont think for a second that if you choose to load up with "bird" shot that you are ill prepared. as for me I load my HD shotgun with 3" Winchester super X #5 shot and shoot it from a full choked barrel.

 

[gunman41mag]

Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition, .357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?

Here's a good example of birdshot's effectiveness (or lack thereof). Took a solid hit to the side as well as some peripheral hits:

Mecosta County homeowner fires several shots at intruder, causing multiple injuries | MLive.com

Telling excerpt: "Police think the suspect was not more seriously injured because he was wearing heavy clothing that stopped some of the birdshot."

Good thing he wasn't a determined attacker.

Getting hit in the neck & face isn't the same as getting hit in the BUTTOCK

 

[cosermann]

Compared to buckshot, yeah sure if I have a choice. Past across the bedroom distance the pellets behave more individually than as a single mas.

Lots and lots of examples of the inadequacy of birdshot to inflict the sort of deep wounds that can biologically compel a determined to stop. How many do you want?

My grandpa was shot with birdshot. Lived into his eighties. Lots of examples of people shooting their hunting buddies with bird shot.

This guy shot in the face. Didn't take his head off. Still alive. Huh. Who would have figured? Only 1 penetrated his skull from the sounds of it.

Shotgun to Face - Funny Video :: KillSomeTime.com

(Lots of unrelated dumb stuff going on in this video, btw.

 

[cosermann]

Getting hit in the neck & face isn't the same as getting hit in the BUTTOCK

He took a solid hit to the side along with a couple of peripheral hits.

I'm not saying birdshot isn't dangerous. Obviously it is and can cause injury. So can slingshots and rusty nails, but I don't use them for home defense. Although, maybe if I loaded a shotgun with rusty nails . . . nah.

 

[RelicHound]

"My grandpa was shot with birdshot. Lived into his eighties. Lots of examples of people shooting their hunting buddies with bird shot."

That really doesnt mean anything...I was shot with a 12ga slug several years ago by a slob hunter...Im still alive.
there even alot of cases where people survive gun shot wounds from large caliber hand guns and rifles...a few years ago there was a local guy who was shot in the face point blank with a .44 magnum and he survived. put the shot where it needs to go and you get the results you want.
Im not advocating the use of bird shot..though I guess it may sound like I am...but like I said earlier..there are better options out there. but I stand my statement that bird shot will get the job done.

 

[cosermann]

Bird shot might get the job done.
Buck shot might get the job done.
Buck shot is more likely to get the job done than bird shot.
That's the whole point. None of these are 100%.
It's a matter of stacking the deck as much in your favor as possible.
Shot placement is only relevant if the projectile will actually do what's necessary when it gets there. Bird shot is often incapable of penetrating even a few inches of soft tissue after it gets through clothing and skin (if it gets through).

 

[Naptown]

So what do you guys say now?

Relic said it best in his 1st sentence, "I dont load my HD shotgun with light load bird shot but I know damn well it'll get the job done.."

I totally agree there is nothing pleasurable about any 12 gauge round. My advice for anyone unsure would to be try all variations of ammo in the situation that would most likely resemble your HD scenario. For me, 00 buck has impressive results.

In conclusion, I will always shoot 00 buck for HD if I can, but I will rest assured that a 12 gauge will suffice regardless of what load I am shooting.

 

[gunman41mag]

Compared to buckshot, yeah sure if I have a choice. Past across the bedroom distance the pellets behave more individually than as a single mas.

Lots and lots of examples of the inadequacy of birdshot to inflict the sort of deep wounds that can biologically compel a determined to stop. How many do you want?

My grandpa was shot with birdshot. Lived into his eighties. Lots of examples of people shooting their hunting buddies with bird shot.

This guy shot in the face. Didn't take his head off. Still alive. Huh. Who would have figured? Only 1 penetrated his skull from the sounds of it.

Shotgun to Face - Funny Video :: KillSomeTime.com

(Lots of unrelated dumb stuff going on in this video, btw.

Too bad we don't know at what distance he got hit with the birdshot & what size birdshot

 

[oneshotonekill]

I was involved in a "Womens beginner pistol" class this weekend and the lead instructor did a demonstration on this subject. He wanted to show the ladies that you can't just "point a scattergun" at a close range in the home. He took a full choked New England 12 ga and punched a hole the size of Skoal can in the target at 15 ft with #7 shot.

I don't think it matters to be honest, you will without a doubt have more penetration with buckshot, but I wouldn't want to be shot at with bird shot either.

 

[gunman41mag]

I was involved in a "Womens beginner pistol" class this weekend and the lead instructor did a demonstration on this subject. He wanted to show the ladies that you can't just "point a scattergun" at a close range in the home. He took a full choked New England 12 ga and punched a hole the size of Skoal can in the target at 15 ft with #7 shot.

I don't think it matters to be honest, you will without a doubt have more penetration with buckshot, but I wouldn't want to be shot at with bird shot either.

If the birdshot don't kill you, it'll take the fight out of you, The video above the guy that got shot with the birdshot had a gun, but after he got hit in the face, the fight was over The old-timers would use "ROCK SALT" to hurt someone, but not kill them, you don't hear those guys that got shot by the rock salt wanting to keep the fight going

 

[Sylvain]

This "birdshot vs buckshot" for home defense can go on forever just like "9mm vs .45", "AR vs AK", "OC vs CC" and many others!
You will never find a ultimate and only right answer.
For me I like 00 buckshot better for home defense because the people who will break into my house would most likely be bigger than birds (on for some other reasons) but that's only my personal preference.
I have no doubt that birdshot will hurt someone really bad or kill him maybe, especially if you have 8 shells in the tube and you keep shooting at your target.
I rather have something with more punch and more penetration but I wouldnt feel under-armed if all I had in my shotgun was birdshot.
Anything that comes out of a shotgun barrel is powerful.
Be armed and be good with your gun no matter what ammo you use that all is important to me.

 

[gunman41mag]

This "birdshot vs buckshot" for home defense can go on forever just like "9mm vs .45", "AR vs AK", "OC vs CC" and many others!
You will never find a ultimate and only right answer.
For me I like 00 buckshot better for home defense because the people who will break into my house would most likely be bigger than birds (on for some other reasons) but that's only my personal preference.
I have no doubt that birdshot will hurt someone really bad or kill him maybe, especially if you have 8 shells in the tube and you keep shooting at your target.
I rather have something with more punch and more penetration but I wouldnt feel under-armed if all I had in my shotgun was birdshot.
Anything that comes out of a shotgun barrel is powerful.
Be armed and be good with your gun no matter what ammo you use that all is important to me.

Well the police use rubber pellets in their non-lethal 12 gauge ammo

 

[MtnBiker6510]

Anything other than the maximum mass and penetration is a compromise of the potential maximum effect. Birdshot of any kind is a compromise. Buckshot has more mass and penetration, period. I don't believe in making compromises with my family. My wife and kids are too important for that. You may only get off 1 shot before the attacker is on top of you or them, so leave the birdshot for the field.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Please take no offense, but I am not looking to scare the bad person off, I am lookin' to kill them. They have no right to be in my home and if they care not about my property rights, I have the right to deprive them of their greatest property, their life.

Birdshot can and will kill. Will I use it? No, and only in a situation where I have nothing else. Those who claim of the single column of pellets from birdshot, how far away are you? Also bear in mind that mass is made of individual components that will not penetrate very deeply even if en masse. Buckshot is heavier, larger and penetrates to the depth I need to take care of business.

I have worked at a range. I saw nothing but folks wanting to use birdshot for defense at home. Even at 7 yards, the spread was horrifically atrocious. I even used to keep a few boxes of buckshot in my bag to GIVE to the person who wanted to do the birdshot thing. I've even shot homemade gelatin blocks at a friend's farm with birdshot, thinking there was some merit to this time tested myth. 12 gauge didn't even get 3 inches in. Bounced off the pork bone I put in. Depend on it at YOUR risk.

One thing to remember: A shotgun is a gun, like any other. It's not a claymore on a stick. They still have to be aimed and having shot spread all over will not bode well. What if you have to shoot at something further than 7 yards? Birdshot will definitely lose it's effectiveness ON HUMANS almost geometrically the further away you get.

Comparing it's effectiveness on humans because it blew a rabbit's head off at close range is moot in regards to a testing testament. A human is not a rabbit. Humans are a tougher stuff, far more durable, have determination and their bones are to be considered inpenetratable for our purposes here.

Blowing all the skin off someone's face with birdshot will likely stop a fight. Shooting them in the gut to "bleed them out and make things painful" likely could put them in shock. But to depend on what's cheapest and something that has proven to NOT penetrate deep enough to damage organs unless point blank is putting your family and life at risk. What if that gutshot guy slices up your family because it didn't stop them due to LACK of penetration? What if that guy missing half his jaw is jacked up on drugs and no pellets reached his bridge or engine room comes at you and you now need 50+ stitches from a steak knife? Prepare for worst, ALWAYS!

I don't think it's Tacticool to use something that is time tested. Use of birdshot is along the lines of Glaser rounds, Magsafe, dum dum bullets, and other things that have worked only in anecdotes from tertiary parties (cousin's sisters brother who was a cop or some such). Buckshot works. Slugs work. PROVEN. RELIABLE. Want something that won't penetrate deep? Try #4 BUCKSHOT (not birdshot). Penetrates enough to hit organs (what you need to stop a goon) and won't go super far when it encounters walls.

 

[badmac183]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc&feature=related[/ame]

 

[Stickfight]

Here is a 9mm out of an MP5 bouncing off a guy's forehead. Anecdotes can say anything you want them to.

Police bullet bounces off skull of murder suspect Daniel Tice - Cleveland.com

Sure the guy has a pretty serious forehead but still.