Bill of Sale

[Sylvain]

There is also one reason when a buyer may ask the saler for a bill of sale.
In case the buyer doesn't have a LTCH, I think it would be illegal to bring the gun back to his home.If being stopped by the police on his back from the sale he could justify why he has a gun without having a LTCH.Of course that would not allow him to carry a loaded gun on his person.
But it's just like when you buy a gun from a FFL dealer, without a LTCH, you are allowed to carry the gun if you are diretcly coming from the gun shop.

Im not sure if that law changed or not, maybe someone can correct me on that.

 

[Sylvain]

Every gun that I've sold on this site I've asked for a Bill Of Sale. I had 2 wrote up, one for the seller and buyer.

I know it's something that's not required. Maybe it is for piece of mind. But I also ask to see a drivers license, to make sure you're an IN resident. And if it's a handgun, I must see a LTCH. I don't copy any info from it either.

If you don't want to sign one, then don't make me an offer on my classifieds ad. It's my gun, and I can sell to whoever I want.

Just curious why you would ask for a LTCH?
Many first time gun buyers dont have one and can still buy a gun from a FFL.
And I think with the new law you dont even need a LTCH anymore to bring your (unloaded and locked) gun to the range.
I just ask if the buyer can legally own a gun (IN resident, over 18, not a fellon etc).
If he says "yes" it's all I need to make a legal sale.

 

[lovemachine]

Just curious why you would ask for a LTCH?
Many first time gun buyers dont have one and can still buy a gun from a FFL.
And I think with the new law you dont even need a LTCH anymore to bring your (unloaded and locked) gun to the range.
I just ask if the buyer can legally own a gun (IN resident, over 18, not a fellon etc).
If he says "yes" it's all I need to make a legal sale.

Because he's buying from me, and I'm not an FFL. And the buyer is not going to or coming from a range. So if he doesn't have a LTCH, he's actually breaking the law.

 

[snapping turtle]

I have a receipt book with entries from as far back as 1995.

If i sell any firearm I record the buyers name and DL number. (proves residency) and Ask to See LTCH (Proves no felony,) I also record serial number/model of firearm. and amount sold for. I also provide the same info to buyer my DL number and show them my LTCH. And date sold. Both myself and buyer get a copy. Seems to have nothing but up sides for both parties.

I don't think I have ever had anyone complain about it. Think of it as signing my yearbook of firearms. After all that reciept book is in the safe with the firearms.

 

[Sylvain]

Because he's buying from me, and I'm not an FFL. And the buyer is not going to or coming from a range. So if he doesn't have a LTCH, he's actually breaking the law.

It all depends where you make the sale though.
If it's at the buyer's home and you have a LTCH to bring the gun to his own home then he wouldn't break the law.
Or if the buyer comes to a meeting place with a third person who has a LTCH and that would after carry the gun back to the buyer's place for the buyer.

The buyer could also go straight to the range after the sale, and then straight from the range to his home, therefore making it legal.

That's how I understand it anyway.

So in some cases it's legal to buy a handgun from a private person without a LTCH.

 

[revsaxon]

I am happy enough to provide a bill of sales if the buyer wants it, but im under no illusion that should the cops come busting down my door looking for a weapon that piece of paper is going to do a damn thing. Not that I ever would, but if I was so inclined how hard would it be to make up a fake one for a gun I buried in the back yard?

I ALWAYS ask to see a drivers licence though, as I don't want to sell a gun to a non-indiana resident. Thats the potential for a kind of trouble I don't need.

 

[lovemachine]

It all depends where you make the sale though.
If it's at the buyer's home and you have a LTCH to bring the gun to his own home then he wouldn't break the law.
Or if the buyer comes to a meeting place with a third person who has a LTCH and that would after carry the gun back to the buyer's place for the buyer.

The buyer could also go straight to the range after the sale, and then straight from the range to his home, therefore making it legal.

That's how I understand it anyway.

So in some cases it's legal to buy a handgun from a private person without a LTCH.

Sure, depending on the location. BUT, I meet in public places. I won't go to another persons home. It's for my safety and his. I've never met at a range, yet. It's always a public place.

So, if the buyer doesn't have a LTCH, he's breaking the law if he's buying my handgun.

 

[BBSparkle]

Every gun that I've sold on this site I've asked for a Bill Of Sale. I had 2 wrote up, one for the seller and buyer.

I know it's something that's not required. Maybe it is for piece of mind. But I also ask to see a drivers license, to make sure you're an IN resident. And if it's a handgun, I must see a LTCH. I don't copy any info from it either.

If you don't want to sign one, then don't make me an offer on my classifieds ad. It's my gun, and I can sell to whoever I want.

Nothing wrong with that. But it would have been nice if this guy had disclosed that he wanted to do that BEFORE I drove out there. Either way, I could have said no, but I was there and it's not the biggest deal in the world. I just generally choose not to do business with people who demand things like that. I don't give them crap for it, though, they should be free to buy/sell/trade in any way they want, I can find the same gun elsewhere.

 

[lovemachine]

Nothing wrong with that. But it would have been nice if this guy had disclosed that he wanted to do that BEFORE I drove out there. Either way, I could have said no, but I was there and it's not the biggest deal in the world. I just generally choose not to do business with people who demand things like that. I don't give them crap for it, though, they should be free to buy/sell/trade in any way they want, I can find the same gun elsewhere.

Yea that was pretty weird. I always mention it in my ad.

 

[Sylvain]

Sure, depending on the location. BUT, I meet in public places. I won't go to another persons home. It's for my safety and his. I've never met at a range, yet. It's always a public place.

So, if the buyer doesn't have a LTCH, he's breaking the law if he's buying my handgun.

But what about the buyer going to a range AFTER he bought the gun from you?
From how I understand it that would make it legal right?

The buyer would be "on his way to the range" and when he goes home he would be "on his way from the range".Both those cases dont require a LTCH.
I dont think the law says it has to be from your home to the range to be legal, it could be from the place where he bough the gun from you to the range.

 

[Sylvain]

Yea that was pretty weird. I always mention it in my ad.

I agree, last time I sold a gun I asked the buyer if he wanted a bill of sale BEFORE going to the meeting.He said "no" so we both agreed that we wouldn't sign any document once we meet.

 

[lovemachine]

But what about the buyer going to a range AFTER he bought the gun from you?
From how I understand it that would make it legal right?

The buyer would be "on his way to the range" and when he goes home he would be "on his way from the range".Both those cases dont require a LTCH.
I dont think the law says it has to be from your home to the range to be legal, it could be from the place where he bough the gun from you to the range.

To me, it doesn't matter. I still want to see a drivers license and a LTCH. If you refuse, find another deal.

 

[WebSnyper]

But what about the buyer going to a range AFTER he bought the gun from you?
From how I understand it that would make it legal right?

The buyer would be "on his way to the range" and when he goes home he would be "on his way from the range".Both those cases dont require a LTCH.
I dont think the law says it has to be from your home to the range to be legal, it could be from the place where he bough the gun from you to the range.

As of July 1, there is no need for an LTCH to transport.

 

[ATM]

...So, if the buyer doesn't have a LTCH, he's breaking the law if he's buying my handgun.

Nope. Even under the old law the buyer was legally excepted to transport a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase (even a public place) to their home or fixed place of business.

 

[Jolfe]

When I sell a gun FTF I require a bill of sale in which both my name and driver's license number and the buyer's will get recorded. I'll bring two copies and give one to the buyer. This way he'll be protected if I sell him astolen gun and I'll be protected if something happens later on with a gun I bought from a shop that keeps an invoice with its serial number and my personal data. Personally, I won't sell a gun without that paper to the first person that flashes a driver's license and LTCH at me but doesn't want me to get any data from them. Call me paranoid all you want, but sorry, if you don't like this most reasonably way of doing business I'll happily bring my gun back home and try to sell it next day to somebody else. Luckily, I’ve never been that desperate to sell a gun.

 

[Sylvain]

To me, it doesn't matter. I still want to see a drivers license and a LTCH. If you refuse, find another deal.

I understand that you want to ask a LTCH anyway, and I respect that.
I just wanted to know if you think that what I said would make it legal to sell to a buyer without a LTCH, not if you wouldn't ask to see a LTCH even if it was legal.

Im just being curious about the law and the way I understand it.

 

[RoyalTenenbaum]

Whenever I sell or trade anything, I always do a bill of sale. When it comes to firearms, it never a bad idea to have a system of documenting when you take possession and when you dispose of an a firearm. Should it be the case that somewhere along the chain of ownership, it is determined that the firearm was used in an illicit manner; it may be beneficial to show that you are a trustworthy above board person. Have documentation to show that coming and going you abided by all laws and verified that the contra parties were members of the "good guys" tribe.

 

[Sylvain]

Nope. Even under the old law the buyer was legally excepted to transport a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase (even a public place) to their home or fixed place of business.

I never understood what could be a "secure wrapper".It makes it sound like the gun is wrapped in paper "secured" with duct tape, but then it's not really secured.
I bet the law doesn't say much about it.

 

[ATM]

I never understood what could be a "secure wrapper".It makes it sound like the gun is wrapped in paper "secured" with duct tape, but then it's not really secured.
I bet the law doesn't say much about it.

Cardboard box, paper baggie, whatever I suppose. Never saw a definition.

 

[G_Stines]

Whenever I sell or trade anything, I always do a bill of sale. When it comes to firearms, it never a bad idea to have a system of documenting when you take possession and when you dispose of an a firearm. Should it be the case that somewhere along the chain of ownership, it is determined that the firearm was used in an illicit manner; it may be beneficial to show that you are a trustworthy above board person. Have documentation to show that coming and going you abided by all laws and verified that the contra parties were members of the "good guys" tribe.

I also require a bill of sale, but only if I signed one when I bought it, or if I bought it from an FFL. I DO NOT take an address. I take a name as stated on the INDL, Birthday, and last four digits of of the DL#. That way, no person really ever feels as though I have their name and living address just laying around my house, but in my mind, it should be enough information that in the event of something, the authorities would be able to locate people with those three pieces. I also provide those of mine on a second copy that is then given to the buyer. Not that I ever plan on going nuts and double dipping by claiming someone stole the gun, but whatever. I keep a book with S/N, date I acquired, amount I paid/how received/ect, and the date that I ceased ownership. The binder also keeps a copy of all my Bills of Sale.