Arsenal Saiga AK-47 at 200 yards?

[indymike]

I wanted to run this by a community with expertise in this area that I can trust.

I just recently bought an Arsenal Saiga AK-47 and was pretty happy with the results at 100 yards that I just shot down Atterbury. My groups ranged from 1.75" to 3.75" which is honestly about how well I was hoping to shoot with this rifle but I want to try to get just the right ammo to maybe do a consistent sub 2 MOA group at 100 yards.

I recently posted on another forum asking for tips regarding ammo that works best with this rifle model and what is the best I can do in group size at 100 yards. One of the members posted a target picture stating that shot a 1 MOA at 200 yards! My first reaction is that there is no way in hell someone can do a 2 inch group or 1 MOA at 200 yards with a Saiga AK-47 using russian steel cased ammo.

Am I being too cynical here? Is it really possible to do this or is this perhaps someone fudging his data?

The first image is the target I shot at 100 yards with my Arsenal Saiga AK using DoubleTap ammo, probably as close to "match" ammo as you can get in 7.62 without doing your own loads.

This is the target posted by a member of another forum that he claims was done at 200 yards using the same rifle model and using Brown Bear Russian ammo:

What are your thoughts?

 

[shooter521]

This is the target posted by a member of another forum that he claims was done at 200 yards using the same rifle model and using Brown Bear Russian ammo:

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that those holes look a little small to be 7.62x39...

If they are, that's some hella good shooting!

 

[mammynun]

Anything is possible. It's certainly not impossible, but I don't own an AK that I can do that with.

ETA: Then again, I don't have a scope on my AK.

 

[snorko]

I have an Arsenal SGL20 and I would accept that group with a good scope. Easy, no but certainly possible

 

[indymike]

Well if it is certainly possible, then I have a new goal. Try to find the best setup (mount, rings, scope, ammo) combination to try to replicate that. I have the same rifle as the person that posted that target so I am assuming they are similar enough that I can get close to it. Then again, he may have gotten one in a hundred that have all components done just right to get a rare AK-47 tack driver.

 

[tradertator]

Bagged and properly scoped, I could see someone shooting that group, but that would still be some pretty freaking fancy shooting.

 

[teddy12b]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the picture of the 200 yard group with Brown Bear ammo sounds a little fishy to me. The AK is not known for that kind of accuracy, and Brown Bear is hardly match ammo. If that rifle & ammo combo could do that I'd be buying one of those and a crate of that ammo.

 

[dom1104]

I have never seen an AK that could do that, with any ammo, much less brown bear.

I would.. have to see that one in person to believe it.

 

[Tombs]

How many people go out and try to even shoot groups with an AK? Much less, go for MOA accuracy...

This is why it sounds uncommon, as well as the number of AKs out there built with garbage barrels and receivers. I see no reason why a saiga can't keep up with anything else comparable on the market.

If you're going scoped, I'm going to keep beating the dead horse here and say you need to go with correct side mount optics, like a PO or POSP. If you go with a side mount rail, rings, and a budget scope you'll have more money into a vastly inferior set up.

As for that one target with the small holes, looks like someone was shooting 223 or 5.45 around their group of 7.62.

 

[dom1104]

How many people go out and try to even shoot groups with an AK? Much less, go for MOA accuracy...

This is why it sounds uncommon, as well as the number of AKs out there built with garbage barrels and receivers. I see no reason why a saiga can't keep up with anything else comparable on the market.

If you're going scoped, I'm going to keep beating the dead horse here and say you need to go with correct side mount optics, like a PO or POSP. If you go with a side mount rail, rings, and a budget scope you'll have more money into a vastly inferior set up.

As for that one target with the small holes, looks like someone was shooting 223 or 5.45 around their group of 7.62.

If you see no reason why its hard to believe that accuracy can be found in what is terrible ammunition, rifles that are REMARKABLE if they pass under 3 MOA with the BEST ammo, then....I dunno what to say.

If that group is true, he has the most accurate 5.45 AK I have ever seen in my life.

 

[Tombs]

Well this was originally posted on the saiga 12 forums
SGL21-61 results with scope - forum.Saiga-12.com

Doesn't seem to be out of reason to me. I also don't see how 3MOA is remarkable, unless my RRA has spoiled me.

 

[dom1104]

I agree with the posters on that forum, that many shots with NO fliers at all, with an AK, is incredible.

As in, very rare.

As in, very hard to think is real.

Especially from a seated position.

 

[snapping turtle]

Ak's get a bad rap on accuracy, Mill spec or out of mil spec firearms created on old machines with unskiled labor. Ect,. Heck if given 100 type writing monkeys I can eventually have them write a best seller.
l
Lots of Ak barrels are .310 not .308 If you give the correct size barrel the correct size ammo groups are normally smaller. That siad I guess it could be a real target.

Heck I can get that size group with a 30-30 and peep sights with one load in oone rifle. I would not be suprised to see someone get an AK to shoot the same.

Ak/sks owners would be well off to take a page out of the cast lead shooters world and SLUG the barrel to see if the bore is oversized. If so to get bullets that reflect the bore.

 

[teddy12b]

Ak's get a bad rap on accuracy, Mill spec or out of mil spec firearms created on old machines with unskiled labor. Ect,. Heck if given 100 type writing monkeys I can eventually have them write a best seller.
l
Lots of Ak barrels are .310 not .308 If you give the correct size barrel the correct size ammo groups are normally smaller. That siad I guess it could be a real target.

Heck I can get that size group with a 30-30 and peep sights with one load in oone rifle. I would not be suprised to see someone get an AK to shoot the same.

Ak/sks owners would be well off to take a page out of the cast lead shooters world and SLUG the barrel to see if the bore is oversized. If so to get bullets that reflect the bore.

In the best of AK with the best of ammo's with a great shot, then sure maybe there's a chance, but an unaltered Saiga with Brown Bear ammo isn't going to shoot like that.

 

[Clay]

Im not buying it. Im sure its possible if all the right conditions lined up, but one thing bugs me about that target and thats the size of the holes.

Thats a 100 yard target, and those are 1" squares. Those holes aren't big enough.

 

[snapping turtle]

In the best of AK with the best of ammo's with a great shot, then sure maybe there's a chance, but an unaltered Saiga with Brown Bear ammo isn't going to shoot like that.

And distance grows on Internet like a groups of fishermen talking about the big bass. First it is 75 yards, then 100 and then 200. First it is 3 inch then 2 inch them MOA.

It took shooting lots of Winchester and marlin 30-30's till I found one that with one load would shoot at 200 yards MOA. I bought it at a estate sale with a half box of ammo and the peeps installed. I never touch a thing on it except to buy several boxes of the same ammo i got with it.

I call that gun one in a million. If they made 150 million ak's there are surely 149 more that shoot that good. nobody exaggerates stuuf on the internet.

 

[indymike]

Well this was originally posted on the saiga 12 forums
SGL21-61 results with scope - forum.Saiga-12.com

Doesn't seem to be out of reason to me. I also don't see how 3MOA is remarkable, unless my RRA has spoiled me.

It's not the first set of targets on that thread on the saiga forums. Scroll down and where someone replied with a single target showing roughly 30 shots all in a 2 inch groups at 200 yards.

The more I think about it, the more I simply cannot believe it. I can see that being done at 25 yards and maybe 50 yards. It strains credulity to think that can even be done at 100 yards with an AK.

Keep in mind, he stated that was a full 30 round mag group and not a single flier. I have the exact same rifle and mount and using 6 different types of ammo from doubletap brass to brown bear, with all ammo used, about every 1 out of every 4 or 5 shots was a flier that went a minimum 3 inches out at 100 yards.

I'm going to try again a few more times adjusting some components but thus far, the best 3 shot group I got was with doubletap, a 1.75" group. But once I started adding shots to the group, it opened up quite a bit to 3.5 inches.

If I could get 30 rounds in a 2.5 inch group at 100 yards using Brown Bear, I would never let that rifle go. I would consider that an AK tack driver worth double its retail value. If I had a rifle that could do 30 rounds of Brown Bear in a 2 inch group at 200 yards, that thing would be priceless IMO.

 

[dom1104]

It's not the first set of targets on that thread on the saiga forums. Scroll down and where someone replied with a single target showing roughly 30 shots all in a 2 inch groups at 200 yards.

The more I think about it, the more I simply cannot believe it. I can see that being done at 25 yards and maybe 50 yards. It strains credulity to think that can even be done at 100 yards with an AK.

Keep in mind, he stated that was a full 30 round mag group and not a single flier. I have the exact same rifle and mount and using 6 different types of ammo from doubletap brass to brown bear, with all ammo used, about every 1 out of every 4 or 5 shots was a flier that went a minimum 3 inches out at 100 yards.

I'm going to try again a few more times adjusting some components but thus far, the best 3 shot group I got was with doubletap, a 1.75" group. But once I started adding shots to the group, it opened up quite a bit to 3.5 inches.

If I could get 30 rounds in a 2.5 inch group at 100 yards using Brown Bear, I would never let that rifle go. I would consider that an AK tack driver worth double its retail value. If I had a rifle that could do 30 rounds of Brown Bear in a 2 inch group at 200 yards, that thing would be priceless IMO.

Which is why.. I dont believe it happened.

CAN a fat kid run a marathon and win it? Yes.

Does it happen? No.

 

[indymike]

CAN a fat kid run a marathon and win it? Yes.

Does it happen? No.

LOL that HAS to win some type of funniest analogy ever award!

 

[INyooper]

I've never won a marathon, but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express...

Isn't this whole "my AK is a tack-driver" not unlike "Herbie Goes To Monte Carlo?" VW Bugs weren't designed, for serious auto racing (though, apparently, they do well in comedic races in the movies). Likewise, nor were AKs intended to be MOA rifles ...or maybe I missed that part in Kalashnikov Design Theory 101 ...idunno, I could have.

Personally, I didn't buy an AK to drive tacks (though, I could, I suppose, call one a "tax-driver," should I want to go full-auto! ...think about it, the pun is there). Certainly some level of consistent and predictable accuracy is desired, else I'd have purchased a blunderbuss (which would actually be pretty neat to have in a collection), but I already get that from most every (if not all) AKs I've shot, including my Arsenal SLG21-66, which fits the consistent, predictable, accuracy criteria very well, thank you very much.

I just can't imagine Ivan and his cohorts sitting in their fox holes at night eating their field rations bragging about how accurate their AK is.

Can an AK hit a man-sized target at 200-300 yards? Aside from providing cover fire, it's very likely doing what it was designed to do. Can it shoot a man's eye out? Probably not. But then, we can leave that job to Ralphie and his Daisy Red Rider.

...just sayin' ...