Arizona Governor vetoes discrimination bill

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  • 88GT

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    Jesus befriended and washed the feet of a prostitute. This act of respect could easily be seen by many as condoning her lifestyle but in reality he was trying to help her foster her relationship with God. This same man wouldn't make a wedding arbor for a gay marriage? Absolutely he would! He would use that opportunity to engage the person and help them see that God is all forgiving and loving? In many cases Jesus performed acts that might have seen as him condoning the sin of the sinner. In every case he used that opportunity to show God's forgiveness.


    Let's take it to PM since we are skirting the edge of acceptability with this line of discussion, but you made the claim so you back it up. Provide the examples where the acts of Jesus are clearly condoning/enabling the sinful behavior of the people with whom he interacts. And for the sake of being on the same page: talking to them and interacting with them is not condoning or enabling. One does not need to participate, condone, or enable sinful behavior to forgive as God has forgiven. I cannot fathom how you can argue that Jesus would participate in sin, even by proxy.

    Sidebar: Jesus didn't wash the feet of a prostitute. The "sinful woman" washed/annointed the feet of Jesus, knowing who He was. Given the story is recounted with a Pharisee present and given the definition of "sinful" to the Pharisees, to say that the woman is a prostitute is conjecture at best. Her specific sin is not named.


    This topic is really getting "religiousy" because that's how the law was passed, "Religious Freedom". I didn't bring religion into this debate, the bill itself does. If this was SBXXXX - Business should have the right to chose to deny service, then we wouldn't be discussing religion at all.

    Ladies and Gentleman.. This is my point exactly. Pass the law because it's the right thing to do, let people be free. Don't try to get support for your bill by pretending it's for religion.

    I support the right of businesses to serve at their discretion. But you are incorrect that this law is the right thing to do. This law is in direct response to a court ruling that vacated that right without cause. The original victim in this whole debacle is not the gay couple who were denied the services of a particular baker because said baker objected to the subject/purpose of the cake. The victim is the business that is being compelled by force to operate in contradiction to its best interests. Any law mandates that is wrong. Not right.
     

    jamil

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    If we let the free market run it's course, these businesses that discriminate will not survive in the 21st century. Money talks.

    Would I patronize a bakery that hurled hateful insults and refused to even allow people on their property they thought were gay? No.

    Would I patronize a bakery that otherwise did business with a gay couple but didn't want to decorate a specialized "gay" cake for them because they found that offensive? Sure.

    Would I patronize a muslim bakery that didn't want to serve a gay couple because they believed that by serving them they're supporting a lifestyle that is against their religion? Sure.

    Why shouldn't I patronize a christian bakery? People get to have their own religious beliefs. And people are conflating that with bigotry. It CAN be bigotry, but having a religious belief that they shouldn't support a certain lifestyle is not in itself bigotry.

    The market isn't really free when market feedback is distorted by powerful groups, including government, to unfairly influence people.
     

    jamil

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    Let's take it to PM since we are skirting the edge of acceptability with this line of discussion, but you made the claim so you back it up. Provide the examples where the acts of Jesus are clearly condoning/enabling the sinful behavior of the people with whom he interacts. And for the sake of being on the same page: talking to them and interacting with them is not condoning or enabling. One does not need to participate, condone, or enable sinful behavior to forgive as God has forgiven. I cannot fathom how you can argue that Jesus would participate in sin, even by proxy.

    Sidebar: Jesus didn't wash the feet of a prostitute. The "sinful woman" washed/annointed the feet of Jesus, knowing who He was. Given the story is recounted with a Pharisee present and given the definition of "sinful" to the Pharisees, to say that the woman is a prostitute is conjecture at best. Her specific sin is not named.




    I support the right of businesses to serve at their discretion. But you are incorrect that this law is the right thing to do. This law is in direct response to a court ruling that vacated that right without cause. The original victim in this whole debacle is not the gay couple who were denied the services of a particular baker because said baker objected to the subject/purpose of the cake. The victim is the business that is being compelled by force to operate in contradiction to its best interests. Any law mandates that is wrong. Not right.

    Ok, I wasted the rep I gave you up thread. This one's better.
     

    hornadylnl

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    If we let the free market run it's course, these businesses that discriminate will not survive in the 21st century. Money talks.

    Indiana gun owners had the free market option in regards to guns in employer parking lots. They chose the statist model instead.
     

    hornadylnl

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    Because you're either ALL free market, or ALL statist.

    Denying service or product is protected by the property rights of a business owner. The choice of permitting guns on your property. Republicans call that a gray area. I call it hypocrisy.
     

    steveh_131

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    Because you're either ALL free market, or ALL statist.

    The inconsistency is undeniable.

    Folks might claim that it's about the free market, but that's not reality. The reality is that they like guns, so they'll support gun ownership over property rights. And they dislike gay wedding cakes, so they'll support property rights over gay wedding cakes.
     

    gstanley102

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    The government want's it both ways.

    The M's can exercise their religious beliefs but the C's cannot.

    Google -- EEOC Star Transport
     

    88GT

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    Indiana gun owners had the free market option in regards to guns in employer parking lots. They chose the statist model instead.
    Does it surprise you though? Look at the responses in so many of the Political Discussion threads. Sacred cows are numerous. Freedom is rarely one of them.
     

    MisterChester

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    Would I patronize a bakery that hurled hateful insults and refused to even allow people on their property they thought were gay? No.

    Would I patronize a bakery that otherwise did business with a gay couple but didn't want to decorate a specialized "gay" cake for them because they found that offensive? Sure.

    Would I patronize a muslim bakery that didn't want to serve a gay couple because they believed that by serving them they're supporting a lifestyle that is against their religion? Sure.

    Why shouldn't I patronize a christian bakery? People get to have their own religious beliefs. And people are conflating that with bigotry. It CAN be bigotry, but having a religious belief that they shouldn't support a certain lifestyle is not in itself bigotry.

    The market isn't really free when market feedback is distorted by powerful groups, including government, to unfairly influence people.

    You have the right to spend your money where you please. What I meant was a lot of people will tend to avoid businesses that are known to discriminate on whatever basis they please. If a Christian baker posts signs that he won't serve gays that's fine, his business his choice. But I would bet he would not only lose the business of gays but also people that believe what he's doing is wrong, and his monetary consequences are of no ones fault but his own.
     

    jamil

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    The inconsistency is undeniable.

    Folks might claim that it's about the free market, but that's not reality. The reality is that they like guns, so they'll support gun ownership over property rights. And they dislike gay wedding cakes, so they'll support property rights over gay wedding cakes.

    People have the right to keep and bear arms, and they have the right to exercise their religion or no religion. At least they should. Personally I don't think a business should have to allow guns on their private property. But they should be liable for harm when people are hurt because they couldn't protect themselves. But I can see the argument either way. That's a bit different from forcing someone to do something that offends their religious beliefs. No one should have a right to be served. But everyone should have the right to protect themselves. You have to admit, you're making a facile pass at one, while over-scrutinizing the other.
     

    hornadylnl

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    People have the right to keep and bear arms, and they have the right to exercise their religion or no religion. At least they should. Personally I don't think a business should have to allow guns on their private property. But they should be liable for harm when people are hurt because they couldn't protect themselves. But I can see the argument either way. That's a bit different from forcing someone to do something that offends their religious beliefs. No one should have a right to be served. But everyone should have the right to protect themselves. You have to admit, you're making a facile pass at one, while over-scrutinizing the other.

    If I put up a no gun sign on my business entrance and you choose to comply, I'm not denying you the right to protect yourself. You are. Don't want to make that choice, don't enter.
     

    jamil

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    If I put up a no gun sign on my business entrance and you choose to comply, I'm not denying you the right to protect yourself. You are. Don't want to make that choice, don't enter.

    Fair enough. But you're still liable. Or should be. Unless maybe you put up a sign that says you're not responsible for people who get hurt when someone shoots up the place because it's a gun free zone.

    Note: Some of that may be tongue-in-cheek.
     

    steveh_131

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    People have the right to keep and bear arms, and they have the right to exercise their religion or no religion. At least they should. Personally I don't think a business should have to allow guns on their private property. But they should be liable for harm when people are hurt because they couldn't protect themselves. But I can see the argument either way. That's a bit different from forcing someone to do something that offends their religious beliefs. No one should have a right to be served. But everyone should have the right to protect themselves. You have to admit, you're making a facile pass at one, while over-scrutinizing the other.

    It's only different to you because you value gun ownership more than gay wedding cakes.

    Some people don't.
     

    hornadylnl

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    Fair enough. But you're still liable. Or should be. Unless maybe you put up a sign that says you're not responsible for people who get hurt when someone shoots up the place because it's a gun free zone.

    Note: Some of that may be tongue-in-cheek.

    The business owner should be no more liable than every gun owning employee is when an employee goes to his car and shoots the place up.

    Would you sympathize with me if I went to work for Ben & Jerry's and started whining about their politics? Don't like your employers gun policy, go somewhere else. Or just invoke the hypocritical, gray reality.
     

    jamil

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    It's only different to you because you value gun ownership more than gay wedding cakes.

    Some people don't.

    I think you're assuming some facts not in evidence.

    Also, thanks for mentioning gay wedding cakes. At least I know we're still on topic.
     

    jamil

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    The business owner should be no more liable than every gun owning employee is when an employee goes to his car and shoots the place up.

    Would you sympathize with me if I went to work for Ben & Jerry's and started whining about their politics? Don't like your employers gun policy, go somewhere else. Or just invoke the hypocritical, gray reality.

    My car is my own personal property. What is in my glove compartment doesn't become my employers business just because I drive on his property. Law or not. BTW, my employer had no such policy before the law passed in KY. If they had, I probably would be working someplace else.

    I know this "hypocrisy" gig is kinda your thing and all. But I see no hypocrisy between the two positions except the particular constraints you place to get us there.
     
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