Another bombing, this time at a school. Suspect caught!

[IndyDave1776]

And where is your evidence that this 16 yo didn't have any intent to harm anyone or destroy property?

So you want negative proof? Nice try, but you are the one who brought up a comparison with someone else who could be demonstrated to have intent.

 

[lucky4034]

So you want negative proof? Nice try, but you are the one who brought up a comparison with someone else who could be demonstrated to have intent.

No, I want you to tell me how you know what her intentions were?

If she was Muslim, were here intentions be easier for you to determine?

 

[IndyDave1776]

No, I want you to tell me how you know what her intentions were?

If she was Muslim, were here intentions be easier for you to determine?

You really are turning statist. You are demanding proof of innocence. The point at issue is the absence of evidence of intent. Get over it.

Second, if a 16 yo Moslem had used a similar device, I would have found it equally comical in terms of making an accusation of terrorism. The most realistic threat of harm would be from hitting one's head on the concrete after falling over while laughing. Had your hypothetical Moslem shouted 'Allahu Akbar' or 'death to infidels' while doing so, I would consider the existence of intent, ineptitude in execution notwithstanding.

I consider it safe to say that kids doing knuckleheaded things transcends culture.

 

[lucky4034]

You really are turning statist. You are demanding proof of innocence. The point at issue is the absence of evidence of intent. Get over it.

Proof of innocence? SHE COMMITTED A CRIME and admitted to it. What in the hell are you talking about?

Innocence isn't even in my question... WE KNOW SHE IS GUILTY. I'm asking you how you can determine her intent from reading that article all the way over here in Indiana?

Keep your insults to yourself

 

[tyrajam]

I made quite a few of these, the tinfoil and draino (I used draino) makes hydrogen. Instead of putting the cap on and letting it explode, we would put balloons on the top and they would fill up with gas. A wad of toilet paper to plug the balloon and light and BOOM a mini Hindenburg. Good times! If I caught a student making one of these at MY school, I would lecture them and email their parents. Our principal would do the same, maybe suspend them for a day. That is why I teach in a private school for far less money than a public school and no benefits-people here think. How about the school deals with the child instead of calling the cops over every infraction. A teachable moment or a freaking felony...hmm, what is easier? Call the cops. I don't want to sound old, but I'm glad I'm not a kid today.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Proof of innocence? SHE COMMITTED A CRIME and admitted to it. What in the hell are you talking about?

Innocence isn't even in my question... WE KNOW SHE IS GUILTY. I'm asking you how you can determine her intent from reading that article all the way over here in Indiana?

Keep your insults to yourself

The point IndyDave is making, and which I will make again, is that there has been no stated evidence that she had any intent to destroy anything; no facebook posts, no tweets, no transmitted threats, no yelling "Death to ____". That being the case, and because the device "fizzled", the crime committed isn't the one you appear to be trumpeting, and there are probably better ways to address it than the one you appear to want.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Proof of innocence? SHE COMMITTED A CRIME and admitted to it. What in the hell are you talking about?

Innocence isn't even in my question... WE KNOW SHE IS GUILTY. I'm asking you how you can determine her intent from reading that article all the way over here in Indiana?

Keep your insults to yourself

I am talking about f**king intent, which was the immediate subject of discussion, to the manufacture, introduction, or use of the device which she obviously did and has admitted doing.

As for the observation you choose to accept as an insult, you are advocating multiple felony charges for something that detention would solve. Have you been on some really bad dope or did Bloomberg hack your INGO account? You sure as hell don't sound like the person I have been convinced that you are.

 

[lucky4034]

....

 

[IndyDave1776]

....

Morse Code?

 

[jbombelli]

Please do... I've got plenty of background in chemistry I can handle it. I'd love to see you use chemistry to describe a "simple over-pressure device".

In a detonation, an initial shock of some sort (often caused by a blasting cap) compresses a high explosive material, heating it and causing chemical decomposition. The formation of chemical products releases enormous amounts of energy in just billionths of a second (literally). This produces and sustains a shockwave that travels through the explosive material at supersonic speed. The detonation wave travels up to 10 km / second, and produces pressures of up to half a million times that of the earth's atmosphere. Temperatures reach thousands of degrees, and power output is in the billions of watts per cubic centimeter. A detonation occurs for all real-world intents and purposes instantaneously, producing a powerful blast of rapidly expanding hot gases.

That is not anything remotely like what happens when you mix aluminum foil and toilet bowl cleaner. That simply makes hydrogen gas. The reaction continues producing hydrogen gas, building pressure, until the container ruptures. It ruptures the same way a car's tire will rupture if you keep ramming more and more air in it until it bursts. You could do more or less the same thing with dry ice and water, or chlorine tablets and alcohol (i.e. generate gasses that slowly build pressure until the flimsy holding container bursts). These are not detonations.


Now be off with you. With your level of knowledge of explosives I wouldn't hire you to blast a tree stump.

 

[lucky4034]

Morse Code?

No... I just feel like carrying on the debate. Hopefully the little girl made an innocent blunder and hopefully the court judges her as such.

With any luck this will serve as a strong deterrent for knuckleheads to not detonate explosive devices inside schools before something tragic happens.

 

[leftsock]

Darn you, Scientific Curiosity on school grounds! YOU HAVE NO PLACE THERE!

 

[hornadylnl]

She didn't have any skittles and watermelon iced tea, did she?

 

[lucky4034]

In a detonation, an initial shock of some sort (often caused by a blasting cap) compresses a high explosive material, heating it and causing chemical decomposition. The formation of chemical products releases enormous amounts of energy in just billionths of a second (literally). This produces and sustains a shockwave that travels through the explosive material at supersonic speed. The detonation wave travels up to 10 km / second, and produces pressures of up to half a million times that of the earth's atmosphere. Temperatures reach thousands of degrees, and power output is in the billions of watts per cubic centimeter. A detonation occurs for all real-world intents and purposes instantaneously, producing a powerful blast of rapidly expanding hot gases.

That is not anything remotely like what happens when you mix aluminum foil and toilet bowl cleaner. That simply makes hydrogen gas. The reaction continues producing hydrogen gas, building pressure, until the container ruptures. It ruptures the same way a car's tire will rupture if you keep ramming more and more air in it until it bursts. You could do more or less the same thing with dry ice and water, or chlorine tablets and alcohol (i.e. generate gasses that slowly build pressure until the flimsy holding container bursts). These are not detonations.


Now be off with you. With your level of knowledge of explosives I wouldn't hire you to blast a tree stump.

I'll have to take your word for it... but even from reading your explanation, I don't see how that isn't exactly what is happening inside that bottle? The aluminum is decomposing as it reacts with the NaOH and is definitely exothermic. The reaction itself is very fast and very hot...

As far as the production of gas and the bottle bursting as well as your car tire analogy, I don't see why either of those are in this conversation. From a chemical standpoint, we are talking about whether or not detonation is occuring in the chemical reaction... not whether or not the bottle can sustain pressures.

What we know is that Al decomposes very fast in a Redox reaction... therefore and while I honestly would have to defer to an expert, I don't see how detonation isn't occurring? The definition you provided leaves ALOT to be desired... not only from a legal standpoint, but even from a Chemical one.

Is there a good site where we could go and get a professionals answer?

 

[EOD Guy]

I'll have to take your word for it... but even from reading your explanation, I don't see how that isn't exactly what is happening inside that bottle? The aluminum is decomposing as it reacts with the NaOH and is definitely exothermic. The reaction itself is very fast and very hot...

As far as the production of gas and the bottle bursting as well as your car tire analogy, I don't see why either of those are in this conversation. From a chemical standpoint, we are talking about whether or not detonation is occuring in the chemical reaction... not whether or not the bottle can sustain pressures.

What we know is that Al decomposes very fast in a Redox reaction... therefore and while I honestly would have to defer to an expert, I don't see how detonation isn't occurring? The definition you provided leaves ALOT to be desired... not only from a legal standpoint, but even from a Chemical one.

Is there a good site where we could go and get a professionals answer?

jbombelli is correct. Look at it this way, tin foil and drano will not detonate if you place it in a bowl or uncapped bottle...you have to place it in an airtight container and it has to build enough pressure to rupture said container. The rapid release of pressure (when container fails) mimics an explosion to those who do not know what a real explosion looks/sounds like. A true high explosive (RDX/PETN/TNT) will detonate at supersonic speeds in any environment.

 

[Smokepole]

Curious or not... this was stupid on her part. She knew what she was doing and knew it didn't belong in school.

No one should be stupid enough to do this type of experiment in a school.... Stupid games... stupid prizes. She deserves what she gets.

You're right, kids always think things through and consider consequences good and bad before doing anything don't they? What was it that Bill Cosby always said about kids? Oh yeah, kids are BRAIN DAMAGED! Dey gots da DAIN BRAMAGE!

Anybody who has been a kid or has raised kids through puberty and adolescence knows this to be true. They are impulsive, don't think things through and they just plain forget. It is and always has been the fact of kids. Hell even a lot of adults.

 

[SecondhandSnake]

Detonate | Define Detonate at Dictionary.com
Explode | Define Explode at Dictionary.com

Yes, and by that definition a balloon popping is an "explosive destructive device" as well as coke and mentos, or the good old fashioned baking soda and vinegar reaction.

This kind of stupidity is along the same lines as arresting a kid for having a deadly weapon because they have a set of nail clippers.

Zero tolerance means zero common sense.

A stern talking to, or even detention was warranted. Felonies and arrest? Absolutely not.

That said, I am not surprised at all. In middle school they tried to nail me to the wall for popping bottles in my spare time with baking soda and vinegar. Keep in mind this was off of school property. There was a police officer called in, but thankfully no arrest. I had to do all in my power to avoid laughing in their face when they called them "bottle bombs" and alleged I wanted to blow up the school with them.

After a two day "investigation" (interrogation) and a three day suspension, I was cleared, and offered one sad excuse for an apology. The principal that went berserk over this was canned the next year, largely due to such heavy handed tactics.

 

[lucky4034]

jbombelli is correct. Look at it this way, tin foil and drano will not detonate if you place it in a bowl or uncapped bottle...you have to place it in an airtight container and it has to build enough pressure to rupture said container. The rapid release of pressure (when container fails) mimics an explosion to those who do not know what a real explosion looks/sounds like. A true high explosive (RDX/PETN/TNT) will detonate at supersonic speeds in any environment.

That is my question... I understand what Jbombelli is saying, but in chemistry terms doesn't each individual molecule detonate? In terms of chemistry we aren't talking about the plastic bottle structure failing to pressure. He brought up chemistry terminology and in terms of chemistry, detonation is considered at the molecular level is it not?

At any rate... all of this is inconsequential as the legal definition of detonation is of concern to the child... not the chemical definition.

My guess is the legal definition is something along the lines of "purposefully triggering an explosive device"... of which she did.

 

[steveh_131]

The experiment reportedly created a small explosion that caused the bottle's top to pop off and produced smoke. Although no one was hurt and no property was damaged,

No victim, no crime.

 

[lucky4034]

No victim, no crime.

Maybe... but in today's society given mass media exposure of all the foreign and domestic terrorism... an explosion in a school will inherently create victims regardless if anyone is hurt or any property damaged.