-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
steveh_131
Grandmaster
What? Link for this? This makes absolutely no sense, from a computer standpoint. I don't even know what to make of it.
Well, let's see if I qualify.
I've never been to Israel. I support their right to exist as a country. They've been one since 1948, prior to which the land (under British rule) was called Palestine. IIRC, that's the closest "Palestinians" have ever been to a country.
The latter's admitted goal has been (and I've never heard that it changed) to "push the Jews off into the sea". In 1967, there was an attack on the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt, the four countries that surround Israel, were among the attackers.
When you live for years with the knowledge that all who surround you want you dead, you do what you have to to stay alive. In our country, we expressed a fair measure of anti-Islamic sentiment when 40-some-odd people used airliners to attack us, and even then, some of our own citizens decided that we were reacting too harshly, that we should show tolerance and find non-violent solutions. To some extent, I can agree; after all, it wasn't everyone who believes in that religion who attacked us. Those that did were dead by then. Those who sympathized with them, well... they faced their own solution. Many of us will remember the story, anecdotal though it is, of the beer truck driver who, on 9/11/01, entered a convenience store where the (Islamic) proprietors were watching the news coverage and celebrating. He promptly pulled all of his product from their store and publicized what he'd done and why. IIRC, it was not long before that store was out of business. And even that faced some criticism.
I don't practice Judaism according to the Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform traditions. I identify with the basic principles in which I was raised, with the exception of Israel always being right. I'm no Zionist. I was raised Jewish, and, to borrow my wife's terminology, today, I'm "Jewish Lite" (meaning Jewish with 1/3 less guilt.) What do I think of the situation in Israel? I think that if someone moves to attack you, you move to stop them, by whatever means necessary.
You want a non-violent solution? That wall is non-violent. It's keeping suicide bombers from killing people and it's keeping them from being shot.
I submit, however, that if you think violence is how only people of low intelligence solve problems, you're on the wrong board. We have among our members doctors, lawyers, engineers, programmers, and members of many other professions that require a high level of intelligence. Those people understand that when violence is brought to your door, you can either respond to it with an overwhelming forcible response, you can get lucky and the threat will go away on its own, or you can bend over and grab your ankles and hope that when whoever it is is done, you escape with your life.
Luck is not a strategy.
Given your premise, that only leaves one option for you.
Note that while I've discussed my religious position here, I do so not to convert anyone, but solely to establish my bona fides. Despite these, I suppose I'll not be considered a "real" Jewish man since I don't agree with you.
No matter. Slanted reporting aside, I do have family that live in Israel, and while I've not much contact with them, I know that people in the right don't attack on what are known as the "High Holy Days" in the hope that a sneak attack will overwhelm those they intend to kill solely because they have what the attacker wants.
Blessings,
Bill
That's an excellent post, Bill. But what I'm not clear on is why a decision was made in 1948 to simply give that land to certain Jews. If the people that were already living on that land in 1948 were not in agreement with the decision, then how is it valid?
It could be said that Europeans stole land from Native Americans long ago. If a decision was made to say, give Indiana back to the native American tribes, would you get up and leave? Let's go as far as to say it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong...would you fight for the land and home you earned? Or would you get up and leave? If you stayed and fought, would you expect things to resolve quickly, or a drawn out war? If you had children, and they grew up surrounded by war and conflict, would you expect them not to get drawn into it?
The truck driver's strategy/response is exactly the kind of response to a problem that I believe in. Just imagine for a second that Israel stopped all military action towards the Gaza Strip/Palestinians indefinitely. Imagine that for one year, Israel used no violent response towards the Gaza Strip, no matter how violent those in Gaza acted. Imagine if they used the truck driver's approach. Creative use of sanctions, or simple boycotting. This would A) totally invalidate any claims that Israel is in the wrong. and B) it would enable people around the world to back Israel rather than criticize it.
But instead, they continue to use weapons like Flechettes and WP, and they continue to inflict disproportionate casualties on the people of Gaza Strip.
As I've said before, there are evil men on all sides and in all nations. I just want to be clear in stating that I don't oppose or hate Jews in any way. I don't oppose or hate muslims in any way, but I can't be in agreement with a prison-state of any kind. That is what I'm so against. I realize this is a sensitive issue for some people, and the last thing I'd like to do is upset anyone. But I'm tired of knowing that so many people suffer because of the actions of their peers.
The the Choctaw Nation was not a nation because you said it wasn't? Or because some Europeans said it wasn't? You're not giving any reasons why what you're saying is true. You're just denying the existence of a nation "just because." I'll never understand this phenomenon. There are idiots out there who deny the existence of the holocaust "just because". It makes no sense whatsoever.
I spoke of Appalachia, not a nation. Appalachia is not the Chocktaw nation. I don't need "reasons" to state a fact other than it is fact, and the fact is "Palestine" was never a nation. This is the problem with antisemitism. You trap yourself in stupid arguments when you try to legitimize it.
Do your research. Shlomo Sand was raised by communists, was part of a communist and anti-zionist groups from a early age. What other stand is he going to take? Just because you are born a "Jew" doesn't make you any more "real".
Trooper
Shooter
About half of all American Jews are secular, non religious. AT best they go to Temple (reform) on high holy days. The Haredi (ultra orthodox) are going as they have more children. And the secular seem to be assimilating at a very fast rate (inter marriage with non Jews). So in a few decades the orthodox will be back at the mainstream of Judaism.
your ecxact words were "Native Americans were not a nation". So you spoke of native americans. you mentioned appalachia in a follow-up comment.
The problem with Anti-Semitism is that any criticism of Israel automatically makes you an Anti-Semite. That's awfully convenient for Israel, isn't it? Like I said before, I oppose Obama and criticize him frequently, does that make me anti-American? Absolutely not, just like criticizing Israel does not in any way make me anti-jewish.
Now you're levying personal attacks while claiming that I'm not providing arguments. All i was asking was for you to back up your statements, which apparently you can't or are unwilling to do.
You don't need to be anti-Semitic to be a dumbass; all you need is a set of blinders and no concept of history. Whether you believe they are the Chosen People or not, the Israeli's acquired their country the same way most of the rest of the Middle East acquired theirs; by political action combined with the "Right of Conquest". The Israelis withstood two attempts to destroy them without increasing their territory; after the '73 war, they took enough territory to give them a buffer against future invasion - and they've given most of that away to the Palestinians. Muslims can be and are full citizens of Israel; the opposite is not true anywhere else in the Middle East at this time. So who is apartheid and who isn't?
There were many Jews in "Palestine" in 1948. They had been continually living in that area since recorded history. Approximately 600,000 Arabs who were living there chose to leave in hopes that they would return when the promised Arab war against the new nation of Israel was concluded. They left. The surrounding Arab countries which btw were also just created out of some British bureaucrat's whim, refused to take them in. Ironically at the same time 600,000 Jews were forcibly ejected from the surrounding Arab countries forfeiting all their property.
So, 600,000 Arabs left what is now Israel voluntarily, while 600,000 Jews left various Arab countries by force. What was the difference? Israel took in the Jewish refugees, but Arab countries refused to accept the Arabs they had encouraged to leave Israel and forced them into refugee camps to be used as pawns even until this day.
Some things are morally ambiguous. This one isn't even close.
Well, I can't say for sure, but one reason I've heard of why England gave that land (back) to the Jewish people was a form of anti-Semitism in itself, the thinking being "If we give them one place to call their own, they'll be easier to get rid of." I'm not sure if that's the case or not, and I'm not going to get further into any religious connotations on INGO about this.
You do raise an interesting question, however, and one for which an answer has been posited before, I think I've even quoted it myself in the past:
"If the Arabs were to lay down their weapons, there would be no more war.
If Israel were to lay down her weapons, there would be no more Israel."
Of course, you can substitute the so-called "Palestinians" for the word "Arabs" in that theory as well.
The most recent public source I can find for that quote (or a version of it) is Benjamin Netanyahu, in 2006, although I'm reasonably certain I heard it long before that. Your stated goals of people seeing that Israel was in the right if they'd only stop fighting for a year... what? Are you honestly suggesting that a nation that small should just allow itself to be bombed and attacked without any response for a YEAR, to appease the other nations of the world? Let's view that on a much smaller level, shall we?
Your neighbors behind you and to either side of your house will come and lay waste to your front yard, your home, your fence, if any, including climbing atop your house and taking pickaxes to your roof, destroying all you've worked for. They will do this for thirty days, and you can do nothing to stop them, short of sitting on your front porch (if you dare!) and wringing your hands, saying, "Please stop. Oh, won't you please stop?" or maybe calling your homeowners' association (if any) and asking them to make a rule against attacking your neighbor's home. Obviously, what you suggest is simply foolhardy. If that was happening at my house, I think that I might resort to flechette rounds myself.
You say you cannot be in agreement with a prison-state of any kind. What is their alternative? Take down the wall and allow the suicide bombings to resume unhindered? This seems to me to be the most peaceful solution there is, short of completely ousting from the land any who differ. On that point, I'd also like to expand slightly: After the several wars started to push Israel off into the sea, all of which failed, Israel has given land back to the defeated aggressors in an attempt to achieve peace. some of the lands given back include Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. Name for me, please, any other country that has captured land as spoils of war and then voluntarily given it back to those from whom it was won. There may actually be some such countries, but I'm not aware of any.
Israel took a barren land and turned it into a thriving, growing place. There are many who theorize a Divine hand in that success, and I won't argue against that, but what we can prove is simply that it happened. Why have the so-called "Palestinians" not done likewise with the portions of the land that they've occupied? Instead, they've chosen to focus their energies not on success and prosperity but rather on destruction of the house next door, solely because they are more prosperous. This is not an argument for the land being important to them, other than as a small area that the Israelis do not go... and a base from which to make more such areas.
Blessings,
Bill
Last edited:
Exactly. "Native Americans" is not a nation. There's a very specific reason I said that.
I used Appalachia as an example as it is the name for a region, not a nation, just as Palestine is the name for a region, not a nation.
What's funny about this is you started this whole thing with a comment about Europeans taking Native American land. Israel is the name of Abraham's son and is the start of the entire Jewish race and the nation of Israel. Tell me what part the Europeans, specifically the Italians known then as Romans, played in Israel before the region was called Palestine.
- Jan 12, 2012
- 27,286
- 113
You are right--two very different things. The aid we give Israel is a result of the Camp David Accords in which Israel gave up something of value (oil) in exchange for this compensation. The Arabs won't even give up their insistence that Israel should not exist and that the Jews should be driven into the sea. Israel has offered land, an independent state, political participation, possession of Jerusalem, and the Palestinians are unwilling to accept any form of 'peace' other than the complete removal of Jews from the Middle East. So far as I am concerned the only thing Israel is doing wrong is bending to pressure particularly from the United States issued by people who have never faced an enemy whose only satisfactory outcome is their elimination.
Site Supporter
Members online
- brizzad
- Tradesylver
- mikek
- 63PGP
- EODFXSTI
- Bassat
- jspy5
- duff
- DoggyDaddy
- mkgr22
- Mgderf
- Dholcomb
- possum_128
- BackFromDC
- Firehawk
- BP84
- TheSpookyCat
- Peacekeeper3073
- Jrich1852
- draftyranger
- Joniki
- KittySlayer
- Nazgul
- NHT3
- gassprint1
- Vimace
- Floivanus
- fireball168
- Dean C.
- hhi7410
- BR8818
- morve80
- Huzrjim
- Altrex
- ComeJesuscome
- Dewidmt
- Kinkopet33
- johnx2
- actaeon277