An answer to "Just had a knock at the door... "

[LegatoRedrivers]

Here I am reading this article, thinking how it could have easily been an officer at the door the other night, wanting to ask if I noticed anything suspicious.

Also thinking about how if I had asked who it was through the door, and they had replied with "police," I would have immediately started thinking about the string of home invasions where the BGs identify themselves as police.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I wouldn't go to the door at 1:30 in the morning


I actually had a close scare the other night when hubby decided to come home a night early and "surprise" me. Surprise was almost on him, but I didn't go to the door, I waited where I was ready to shoot.

The very reason my wife and I do not scare each other and ALWAYS notify each other when we are coming home etc.

It's also helpful because family members rarely 'drop by' for a visit without prior approval.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Here I am reading this article, thinking how it could have easily been an officer at the door the other night, wanting to ask if I noticed anything suspicious.

Also thinking about how if I had asked who it was through the door, and they had replied with "police," I would have immediately started thinking about the string of home invasions where the BGs identify themselves as police.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't sometimes.

(I would so it the same as you BTW)

 

[Jack Burton]

Here I am reading this article, thinking how it could have easily been an officer at the door the other night, wanting to ask if I noticed anything suspicious.

Also thinking about how if I had asked who it was through the door, and they had replied with "police," I would have immediately started thinking about the string of home invasions where the BGs identify themselves as police.

From my understanding in talking with police officers they have no problem with you calling 911 to verify that the person standing outside your door is really a police officer.

 

[rockhopper46038]

From my understanding in talking with police officers they have no problem with you calling 911 to verify that the person standing outside your door is really a police officer.

I sure would hope not.

 

[Bunnykid68]

From my understanding in talking with police officers they have no problem with you calling 911 to verify that the person standing outside your door is really a police officer.

I was just getting ready to say this very thing. tell them to hold on while you called 911

 

[ilovemyjeep]

Same for me.....If someone was banging, or even knocking on my door in the middle of the night...if I didn't recognize them, the very next thing is 911 for me. And respectfully, I don't think I will be opening the door.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Why the obession with opening the door to strangers? Something people learn from the movies?

My father taught me to talk through the door. Why not just talk through the door instead of this movie nonsense?

 

[femurphy77]

It says here he pointed the gun at them. Someone can be pounding on my door and I won't open it up and point a gun at them.

"When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said."​

Of course we only have one side of the story since the other side is conveniently dead!

 

[thebishopp]

"When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said."

It might be just me but I smell a lie.


While I find it very believable that he answered the 130am pounding on his door with a gun in hand... I am somewhat skeptical on if he did so while actually pointing the gun at the unknown door pounders.

This is obviously just speculation but I think this is a much more credible theory on what happened:

Officers saw bike belonging to very bad guy. Bike was parked in an apartment complex parking lot in a space which was either directly in front of the Soon To Be Dead Guy (hereafter referred to as STBDG) or in one of the spaces to the left or right of the door.

It is about 130am so Officers decide that rather than wait and watch the residence or advise their shift commander so that surveillance can be set up, they were going to pound on the door. Why they decide to forgo common sense action who knows.

So now they are pounding on this door at 130am of the STBDG's apartment without, admittedly, identifying themselves.

STBDG opens the door with gun in hand (NOT pointed at them but down at his side or by his waist area).

Officers see gun, and believing that it is the "very bad guy" they are after (and probably not really knowing what he looks like) they draw and fire. Or more likely just fire because they probably have their guns out already. Especially if they fear for their safety so much that they don't want to announce who they are while they are pounding on the door of a supposedly very dangerous person at 130am.

In fact on a side note. What the hell were they thinking pounding on the door of a guy who was supposedly very dangerous at 130am in the morning without any other type of backup? Surely they didn't think he was just going to open the door and surrender peacefully once he saw there were two officers there. They had to be prepared for a fight of some sort before the guy even opened the door. I'd say they already had their guns drawn and when STBDG opened they door with gun in hand they just shot him.

--------------

Now while this is all speculation what we know to be as close to factual as possible is:

1. Officers saw bike belonging to bad guy in apartment complex parking lot. Bike appeared to be in front of STBDGs apartment.

2. Officers decide to forgo any type of surveillance (by now most of us know how bad such decisions can turn out).

3. Officers start pounding on the door of STBDGs apartment at 130am without identifying themselves.

4. Officers shoot STBDG because he shows up at the door holding a gun (maybe or maybe not actually pointed at them but definitely in his hand).


Sounds like a serious error in judgement and lack of common sense on the part of the Officers in this matter. Serious enough that it resulted in the death of an innocent (at least in this case) citizen.

Unless it is someone's contention that Now Dead Guy was doing something unlawful that warranted deadly force then I don't care "what NDG should or should not have done".

 

[JB357Mag]

2 weeks ago someone knocked on my apt door at 5:30 am
on a sunday.

I just happend to be up or I would have been real pissed, anyway
yes carried my 1851 colt to the door but didnt open it.

Looked threw the peep hole and saw a younger guy 20's?.

He said he was in my apt earlier that eve and I said no way and
he left.

Felt good to have my buddy with me though.

Jimmy

 

[Liberty Sanders]

• Is there anyone on this forum who, hearing someone beating on their door at 1:30am wouldn't go to the door gun in hand?

Anytime that ANY stranger appears at my door, regardless of time of day, I open the door with a handgun held discreetly behind my back.

 

[JimmyR]

I agree that both parties were at fault.

First off, I believe if a LEO does not identify himself or herself and provide badge/ID, he or she should not act in such a capacity until its happened.

Second, if someone is coming to my door, I am going to ask them to identify themselves before I open the door, and yes, I will have a weapon in my hand, and possibly a second gun/knife close by.

Finally, if someone points a gun at me, I have to assume they are willing to shoot me. "Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy" (Rule #2).

This is a tragedy, and assuming the information we have is accurate, I think the shooting was justified (since the victim pointed a gun at the LEO's outside), maybe negligent (depends on how much weight you place on the LEO's identifying themselves), and definitely avoidable.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Just think of all the trouble that could be saved if the police would go to the trouble of knocking on and/or breaking down the right door! It seems that they must have a reading problem. Just match the numbers on your warrant with the numbers on the house. Simple.

 

[Valvestate]

Just think of all the trouble that could be saved if the police would go to the trouble of knocking on and/or breaking down the right door! It seems that they must have a reading problem. Just match the numbers on your warrant with the numbers on the house. Simple.

Some buildings are not clearly marked with their addresses and guesswork is required. My brother was a meter reader for RIPSCO and complained about it all the time. So it goes back to the just don't open the door/don't point your gun out the door as you open/don't fail to ID yourself as a LEO/don't be an asshat argument.

 

[sepe]

If I was the LEO and the nature of my business there was to apprehend or question someone known to be dangerous, I'd likely be on ready. It's less likely to be this situation in this case since the article doesn't mention it, but it still could be the case. If the gun was pointed at me, I'd likely react. If it was holstered, no. In hand would again depend on why I was there and who I was supposed to be talking to. Likely I would have mine pointed and asked to him to holster unless he began taking aim.

There's also the question of did the homeowner request ID before opening the door. If you're afraid to open up to a knock, it sounds like the first logical step.

Too little info, too many variables. Definitely should be investigated. Too bad the guy's a dead man and can't tell his tale.

I'd also hope you'd try your best to be knocking on the right door. It isn't the first time that this has been the outcome from a situation like this.

Some buildings are not clearly marked with their addresses and guesswork is required. My brother was a meter reader for RIPSCO and complained about it all the time. So it goes back to the just don't open the door/don't point your gun out the door as you open/don't fail to ID yourself as a LEO/don't be an asshat argument.

And yes, it has happened at houses. I can understand that apartments aren't always clearly marked but it has happened far too often. I know that if I were a LEO, I'd be making sure to the best of my ability that I was at the proper door/address.

 

[Valvestate]

I would've checked neighboring dwellings and counted from the closest marked and just followed the increment to the right one. I'm not saying the cop is clear of fault. I'm saying he may have done his best to find the right place. Considering the bike was in front the guy's house, he probably deduced he had reason to believe the guy he was looking for was there. I don't see a reason to blame that piece of logic.

 

[Birds Away]

The bottom line is that an innocent citizen was executed in his home despite breaking no laws nor violating anyone else's rights. That is the bottom line. The results are that Mr. Innocent Citizen is dead and the government agents who performed the execution are, and undoubtedly will remain, free to continue to "serve and protect". How many innocents must die before it becomes unacceptable? Everyone seems content to critique the homeowner's actions and find fault. He was in his home and he was killed by agents of the government for no reason whatsoever. I am not anti-police but there has to be a point beyond which we will not go as a society. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[rockhopper46038]

I would've checked neighboring dwellings and counted from the closest marked and just followed the increment to the right one. I'm not saying the cop is clear of fault. I'm saying he may have done his best to find the right place. Considering the bike was in front the guy's house, he probably deduced he had reason to believe the guy he was looking for was there. I don't see a reason to blame that piece of logic.

I blame that logic because it was wrong and got an innocent man killed. Why the $&@$ are LEOs guessing on where to serve warrants? If it isn't clear which property is the right property, or which person is the right person, go back and do your damn homework again.

The job can be dangerous; I get that. I'm glad someone is willing to do it, so long as they do it competently. I don't even blame the officers for making a split second decision to kill someone they thought was a threat to them. But they were wrong, which makes it manslaughter or murder, and so they should face the consequences of their understandable but NOT forgiveable decisions.

 

[KLB]

Just think of all the trouble that could be saved if the police would go to the trouble of knocking on and/or breaking down the right door! It seems that they must have a reading problem. Just match the numbers on your warrant with the numbers on the house. Simple.

There was no mention of a warrant for that address, only that the suspects bike was parked in front of it. Sounds like they had the address they wanted. They just didn't do enough investigation to find out if the bad guy was actually at that address.